Hi,
Bought a 4 yr. old horse in August 2023. Soon after purchasing her, I realized there were some physical issues to figure out. In December, I had her selenium/ Vitamin E levels checked and found out she had quite low selenium levels. Her Vitamin E was low normal. Since I had been supplementing Vitamin E for about 3 weeks, I am assuming her initial levels of that were low. I have been supplementing both since. I dove into selenium research and discovered that many, likely all, of the symptoms I was worried about through the fall months, could be attributed to selenium deficiency. Symptoms- tight muscles, at times resisting grooming, diarrhea and fecal water syndrome (found out from owner after purchasing her that the diarrhea/FWS had been going on for a long time), a strange buckling in hind end, resistance to walking down hill. I am not riding the horse. She had had a short start under saddle the previous fall. My plan had been to restart last fall, but did not because of all this.
So, my current question is for those out there who have dealt with quite low selenium level. How long till you saw a real improvement of symptoms? Did you exercise the horse at all during recovery time? My deep research into this issue has discovered this could take awhile I do plan on retesting levels soon.
This is a polite, sweet mare. I would not describe her as overly reactive, however she has some overly reactive moments that donât really make sense to me. Could this be a symptom also?
Thank you for input
What Vit E product have you been using, and how many IU?
The good thing about E and Se is that to some degree, one can do the job of the other if itâs low BUT, that does tend to make that one low eventually too, so itâs not surprising what you found
3 weeks isnât quite long enough to significantly raise levels unless maybe you were using a higher dose of a water-soluble form, but it could have raised it a little if you werenât using either
Se doesnât degrade, meaning itâs in both fresh grass and hay, unlike Vit E which DOES degrade, quickly, in hay
But, many areas of the US are too low in Se in the soil, therefore the forage is low
How long to see blood level improve depends what form of Se you use, and how much. If it were me, finding âquite low Seâ I would be adding 6mg of a selenium yeast, or selenomethionine, the 2 most bioavailable forms, and re-test in 2-3 months. Se doesnât rise quickly.
Low Se and low E both affect muscle health so yes, it can make horses reactive, OR dull, depending on exactly how they respond to that dysfunction.
Hereâs a good chart on how much and what type of Vit E to supplement with based on blood results, from Dr Carrie Finno, DVM, based on her in-depth research on this
Thank you JB
Started with Santa Cruz Vit E organic 4000 out and quickly bumped to 8000 iu After test results started on Nano E - 2 bottles worth. Now back to 8000 iu Santa Cruz as of a week ago
Using horse tech products for a total 3 mg/ day of selenium , combo of high point grass and selenium yeast Initially started with 2 mg/ day then bumped up. Vet clinic did not give me any helpful advice IMO, just a suggestion to add 1 mg/day selenium which i instinctively knew was not enough and hence research I did.
Your suggestion of bumping to 6 mg is why I posted. I have found research that tells me I should be giving more than I am. I feel I am a bit on my own here and donât want to do harm. That is also why I posted.
Very frustrated
I am in a selenium deficient area
Her Vitamin E was 2.3ug/ml
My thought of giving extra Vit E was to help with selenium low level
Perhaps I should lower E supplement and add more selenium?
Selenium was .044 ug/g
ok so you went hard and heavy, especially with the Nano-E, so to still be low normal means she must have been really low. FWIW, if you need water-soluble gain, Emcelle is way cheaper than Nano-E which is the most $$ of the 3 products (Elevate W.S is the 3rd)
1mg/day isnât enough for a low Se. Maybe low-normal but not low. Heck, even low-normal Iâd be doing at least 3mg for a good 3 months before re-testing
you really want at least 3 for that unit of measure for E, and if work increases a lot I wouldnât be afraid to aim for 5. 3-4 is considered ânormalâ, but itâs just not enough if theyâre in harder work (and I realize at 4, thatâs not yet the case)
0.044 is really low! Are her feet having any cracking issues? Hopefully she hasnât been that low for toooo long. You really want at least 0.100. That said, I do seem to recall that different labs have some different reference ranges, but theyâre all kinda sorta similar, and I think no matter what, 0.044 is truly much too low.
So ME, Iâd be adding 6mg of either of those forms of Se, on top of whatâs in her normal diet, and re-test in 2-3 months. 2 months should at least show you if things are moving the right direction, and then in another 2-3 months to see how close youâre getting.
Given that her E is still low, I think I might do 2000-4000 IU of Emcelle for the next 2 months until you can re-test both E and Se, and then evaluate what to use for E if sheâs plenty normal
Thank you
I likely would have tested her sooner but the major diarrhea/FWS issue occupied much experimentation with feeding/supplements. The hind end buckling occupied a dive into stifle issues,
Xrays,ultrasound-nothing found there
No suggestions to check Vit E /Selenium. That was my idea, knowing something was not right, and researching
Whether the diarrhea came before selenium deficiency or deficiency first (chicken or egg)???
I am not working her. She has a good sized paddock and a few hours turnout in bigger pasture weather dependent
Nice feet, no hoof problems, maybe not growing as fast as I would expect.
Se toxicity is something to be concerned about. When supplementing Se in that high amount how do you know when to drop it or stop? Are the blood tests done frequently to check levels?
But not nearly as delicate a thing as many have been led to believe. The NRC says the safe upper limit is 2mg/kg of feed a day. Thatâs 20mg for an 1100lb horse eating 22lb of hay
6mg on top of whatâs in the diet isnât at all going to cause issues in the 2-3 months between tests for a horse whoâs currently really, really low, or even if he were normal. You DO need to do some blood work to see if the amount youâre adding is doing its job, and just back off how much you give if youâve gotten him into the normal range.
I wouldnât necessarily attribute all those symptoms to a mineral deficiency. Some may have an actual musculoskeletal component that should be looked into, specifically the buckling of the hind end and trouble walking down hill which can be signs of hock, stifle or SI/back pain.
Interestingly enough, and I am afraid of jinxing things, but the one thing that has improved immensely within a very short time of supplementing selenium is the buckling in the hind end. and yes, initially we looked for musculoskeletal issues. With all the research I have been doing, i was surprised to learn how many ways low selenium can affect a horse.
Does anyone else remember the story 30+ years ago in CoTH about Custerâs last stand? There was suspicion the Calvary horses were Se deficient and tying up, while the hardy Indian ponies from the area were not. (Yes, Iâm older and a really long time subscriberđ).
Selenium can also be present in water and people absolutely do need to be careful supplementing it and need to know their local and farm situation before giving large amounts.
Public water is limited to 0.05mg/L. If a horse was drinking 10L, which is almost 40 gallons, thatâs still only 0.50mg.
Sure, well water could have more, though I canât say Iâve ever read a single story of that being a cause of toxicity.
The point is - itâs not as easy to OD as many want to believe. I never said just willy nilly add 6mg. If you suspect an issue, TEST. And supplement based on that.
Test the horse. Not the soil, not the hay (because itâs an $$$ test and itâs not reliable anyway).
Thereâs also a reason feeds and supplements are limited to 0.6ppm if that feed can be fed at 50% of the intake, because the odds of that causing any toxicity issues is almost none, and when it does, itâs because the forage (or maybe water but highly, highly unlikely) is the problem, not the feed or supplement
Hi, OP here
I boosted horse to 4 mg/ day as of yesterday and am considering adding another mg.
JB- thank you The information you provided is compliant with what I have been digging up. And thanks for the vitamin E chart. By any chance, do you have a Selenium chart? Also, have you or anybody else here dealt with a horse with this low level selenium in blood?
Plan on retesting soon
Iâm not sure anyone has done that. You really just have to base things on the blood work. The only real requirement is to use one of those 2 forms, as other forms are just poorly bioavailable (but also cheap, so you do find them in many feeds). Sodium selenite is one such cheap form.
I have not personally had low Se in horses, but have several friends who did, and se supplementation fixed them up nicely
My gelding was low in selenium and vitamin e. He had diarrhea, muscle wasting, tripping. He would be calm then just go bananas out of nowhere in saddle and not. He has a history of ulcers as well so that could be one reason. Previous years I would see results with 30 days of treatment with his Topline and maybe 90 days with tripping. This year it doesnât see to be cutting it. He is 21 and these problems have come back. I just had him re tested and havenât heard back.
Hi,
OP here.
Thanks Olim 2005 for sharing your story. Interested to hear more. My horses initial remission of symptoms has reversed. I retested Vit E/Se levels again in March. Se was in normal range. Vit E was increased. I treated for potential ulcers with Ulcergard. I did see a positive response. In addition, when I requested testing for Vit E / Se levels back in December, I also requested testing for EPM, only because of what if? EPM came back borderline. Vet I was using advised not treating. I consulted different vet about my horse and that vet was the one who retested Vit E / Se levels sent to same lab as before. This vet advised treating EPM through Pathogenes. Just completed that treatment, with no visible response as of yet.
Something occurred to me that I am testing myself I assumed the initial positive response(symptoms lessening) , was due to SE supplementation. However, I had started with Natural E Powder at beginning of December, and switched to Nano E. After 2 bottles of Nano E, I switched back to high dose natural E powder. 8000iu. I questioned myself doing that as things seemed to be improving but I did that. Because of that, and now wanting to leave no stone unturned before proceeding with either more treatment or more diagnostics, I am doing a trial of Nano E. I chose that liquid E solely because it was the one I used before.
I am very frustrated with this situation.
You might look at something like this, I had a TB mare that was super low. Once we got it up, this was great for everyday supplementation. https://horseguard.com/products/mega-dose?variant=31620483874914
thatâs got a good bit of Se in a 4oz serving, at 3mg. The rest is is pretty poorly fortified. 15gm copper, less than 1gm methionine, barely 1mg lysine, insignificant probiotics. 200mg Zn is decent, but so unbalanced with the copper. Iâd definitely supplement just Se if thatâs what the goal is, not spend $1.60 a day for this.
