Selevit Injectable

[Angela_Freda]

@Angela_Freda

As soon as Branscomb received Rodriguez’s phone call, she headed to the barn, she said. She arrived just after Chromatic had received the injection and been walked from the veterinary station to the crossties (1), where Rodriguez started wrapping him. As she fed him carrots there, Chromatic suddenly screamed and collapsed, then began seizing, she …"

(1) It does not say by whom.

Now, if I’m Pepe, and they insist they’re taking Chromatic to the vet area… And owner has said no way… I’m not sure what I do.
Id probably stall, hoping the owner gets there.
Or call security?

But if a groom has the ability to stop this, as you suggest other more experienced grooms would, why wouldn’t Pepe or the owner saying “nope” not get that same consideration?

Re the signed release being a reason Pepe let Chromatic be given the shot… I doubt that form is available to show him to convince him to let the horse go or bring the horse to the vet area. So I’m not sure that’s helpful.

The only time I experienced anything like this, though a vastly different level of play for sure, was when one of my charges were being pee tested, and owner told me to stay with him and observe.

[Angela_Freda]

@Midge

Based on all of the responses and non responses, I’d say this is unlikely.

What do you mean?
I’m not following this on Facebook so I am missing bits, for sure…

[Midge]

The owner said she did not know he was getting this. There has been no statement by USEF saying their vet had owner permission to give the injections.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

Like many details about this incident, the owner’s statements that she was unaware the horse was getting these meds are somewhat open to interpretation.

I’ve read her public posts, and it’s unclear to me whether or not she was just unaware that the horse was getting administered Legend, Adequan Traumeel, Arnica and Selevit in the minutes before he had the fatal reaction… or whether she was unaware he was getting any of these medications period.

I would imagine, like many horses competing at this level, the horse does get Legend and Adequan on some sort of regular schedule. And Arnica is widely used as well in a number of different preparations. So I lean towards assuming that what she is saying is that she wasn’t aware the horse was getting these medications in the minutes before the fatal reaction.

I can understand her frustration and anger and grief if there had been clear instructions prior to this that no one was to give the horse anything without first consulting the owner and the stateside vet who was regularly in charge of the horse.

However… the unanswered questions and lack of clarity in some of the public statements about this whole situation so far are noteworthy, and maybe it’s best not to rush to judgement about the Team vet or USEF just yet.

The only thing I am certain of after reading all this is that I would be VERY VERY cautious before ever having one of my horses get an E-Se injection of any kind.

[Midge]

@Virginia_Horse_Mom

I’ve read her public posts, and it’s unclear to me whether or not she was just unaware that the horse was getting administered Legend, Adequan Traumeel, Arnica and Selevit in the minutes before he had the fatal reaction… or whether she was unaware he was getting any of these medications period.

I think it is unclear whether he was getting those medications at that time.

[Jealoushe]

It’s still terrible.

[Ghazzu]

@OutsidersOpinion

you want to think the fei vets and rules have the best interest for the horses in mind

Any illusions I may have had on that front have gone out the window with the atrocious management of endurance riding under FEI rules.

[Bonnie2]

Agreed, ground juries have long memories! It has been my experience that eventing ground juries tend to be more strict than dressage or show jumping. And I am skeptical that horses are medicated ‘for the jog’ more than for the job.

[kenyarider]

I have to wonder about the “FEI show jumping is clean sport” when the horses are getting all these chemical cocktails (even Trameel is a chemical albeit natural). For some reason I assumed, wrongly, that the horses were getting no medicines (chemicals) in FEI because is was supposed to prevent masking pain or discomfort. Those medicines alleviate pain, i.e., mask it. When I take a medication, I know that the root cause of my pain is not being fixed, my body has to do that, the medicine merely helps. And before you all go nuts about this, that’s the story of the Olympics - drug free, remember?

[CBoylen]

But NSAIDS are not prohibited for Olympic human athletes, just for FEI horses, aren’t they?

[Live_Wire]

@Jealoushe

Now I understand why Andrew Nicholson went ballistic on NZ team vets after an event. I’m guessing it was something similar.

It always bothered me that the reporting was so piss poor. Published resources were either pointing fingers at AN or an avenue for a character witness testimony. There was very little information on what actually happened.

The groom was never alerted that she could return. After an extended amount of time, she decided to check on him (Nereo) and there was no one there overseeing the horses. Nereo was left alone with an empty, unsecured recovery drip for an an undetermined amount of time. There was no documentation visible (which is standard practice), including vitals or what was administered. After the were able to reach the veterinary team, AN had words. The vet threw his clipboard at AN prior to AN shoving him. Nereo was not easy to manage for the last trot up. They had a very specific regimen. Nereo utlimately did not recover well and the farrier had to get higly involved. He stepped down afterwards out of frustration.

@enjoytheride

Adequan given every Friday the horse shows? Legend daily during shows? Good God. Maybe I’m just a nobody Amateur, but I’d retire Pookie to the pasture if that’s what it took to keep my horse sound so I could ride him at shows. I am just horrified that the frequency of injections in competition horses is no big deal.

There is a steep misunderstanding of what management of UL horses consists of and it’s largely due to how unwell received the information is. Injections aren’t used only to keep a horse sound, they’re also utilized to provide high level joint support.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@Live_Wire

There is a steep misunderstanding of what management of UL horses consists of and it’s largely due to how unwell received the information is. Injections aren’t used only to keep a horse sound, they’re also utilized to provide high level joint support.

Yes. This. In part, this is why I am continuing to question some the statements that the horse wasn’t on Legend or Adequan. That doesn’t make sense to me. It was an upper level jumper in its teens. I would assume it’s on a regimen of joint support. Most horses at that level are. Joint support like Legend and Adequan is different than the inappropriate use of intra articular steroid injections to prolong the competitive career of a horse that is not truly sound anymore.

[EmilyM]

I give my horses legend every week they jump for the most part. It’s not to make them sound or mask pain but to optimize their comfort and support their joints/prevent deterioration. If ALL it takes is that to make an unsound horse sound that isn’t much. It’s not like giving a horse bute before a jog.

I’d say most savvy people give horses adequan and legend before a vetting so it goes optimally. Again, if that’s the difference between sound and unsound, the horse isn’t unsound.

The pearl clutching around what it takes to manage a horse at that level is really shocking to me. Think of how hard they work and how they are stuck in a box most of the time they are at a show. It’s not optimal for normal horse recovery (like a night of turnout).

[DMK]

I totally agree that’s it’s not exclusively for the jog, but if a horse has a history, you know it has to be top of mind, especially if he’s just one of those funky question mark movers but still gets around the sticks just fine. I mean you can’t lose a class or win it for that matter if you don’t even get a ticket to play!

[DMK]

WADA rules crack me up. Stack nsaids? Sure. Gabapentin? Don’t mind if I do! HCL/water pill, a super common blood pressure med? Better get that TUE form filled out!!!

There comes a point when I wonder if I have enough drugs in me that I will drip sweat on my horse and trigger a positive.

[Rel6]

@Angela_Freda

But if a groom has the ability to stop this, as you suggest other more experienced grooms would, why wouldn’t Pepe or the owner saying “nope” not get that same consideration?

Because some people carry more weight. I don’t think @OutsidersOpinion is saying a groom or owner could have stopped it from happening. I think they are saying the RIGHT groom or owner could have. Lee is a legend in the sport. I agree that there is no way a vet is risking ruining the relationship with someone like Lee or McLain when the other option is just wait for the owner to arrive.

But with someone who has their first horse competing at this level, where their name or relationship isn’t as valued or doesn’t carry as much weight - you can see how they have a lot less power in that situation, especially in light of the signed loan agreement.

No on would want to risk McLain or Kent or Laura saying “screw this, I’m never loaning a horse for international competition again.” But with someone who doesn’t consistently send horses to that level - not a concern.

[SlamDunk]

@DMK

Don’t mind if I do! HCL/water pill, a super common blood pressure med? Better get that TUE form filled out!!!

That’s partly because some of those innocuous medications are used to mask more performance enhancing ones

[Annie10]

I highly doubt that that form the owner signed was kept anywhere available and even if it were I also feel it safe to say that the vet personnel and other USEF people in charge are not accustomed to having to show it to the grooms, as someone suggested. The release says what it says and the owner signed it. They don’t have to call anyone, discuss it with anyone or explain it to anyone, per that release.
I also agree with poster who stated that had it been a high profile big marquee name or horse that the situation may have unfolded differently.

[skydy]

@OutsidersOpinion

He was worried and upset that they were asking him to bring the horse to the vet station. We had been very clear earlier in the week nothing be done to him without [permission from] me personally or my veterinarian, who was not in Riyadh but available by phone. He was concerned because I hadn’t told him the horse was getting a shot.”

I don’t know why people are assuming that there was a phone call between the vets.

I read that as, she said that her Vet was “available by phone” not that the Ridyah vet called him, but that he should have.

[Mardi1]

@Annie10

They don’t have to cal the owner, the regular vet , the man in the moon or anyone else. And what Pepe does or did isn’t relevant to any of it .
The “team ” and their vets had authority via a signed release from the owner of that horse to do whatever they wanted to with that horse whenever they wanted to do it.

The owner said she had given the team explicit instructions that Chromatic was not to be given anything (meds) without her permission. Yes, she signed an agreement. IMHO team officials owed her the professional courtesy, and the respect as an owner, to notify her in advance of their plans. That’s what USEF officials agreed to.

edited to add: I don’t care if Pepe or KC are considered big name people or not on the international level. To float the idea that if either one had better name recognition which would have made them untouchable, adds insult to injury.