Anecdotally, I show at the A rated level regularly april-October. I myself have had horses tested maybe every other year, my trainer may bring 15-20 horses to a show and SOMEONEwill come up On the random draw at minimum once a year. I see USEF drug testers at EVERY rated show I go to. They are not hard to spot with their clipboards and USEF swag following a pace or two behind a horse as he walks back to the barns. There have been many COTHers who have confirmed they/their barn has been randomly chosen. At the A rated level IMO, it happens VERY often (and I have been showing A shows in zone 3 since the early 2000s). Not sure where folks are saying HJ shows donât have drug testers, because those usef dollars are clearly being spent in my neck of the woods. Could be a volume/resourcing issue?
Yes, at every A show Iâve been to there are testers present. With 200-500 horses, random testing wonât get everyone. My horses have been tested over the years. Iâve never used anything illegal so itâs just always been a nuisance that I deal with.
Honestly, I find this post insulting. I have seen a concerted effort by many trainers to keep the parents and honestly often the kids as clueless as possible. All they want is the credit card and a parent who doesnât ask questions. They very often get their wish and between this and the fact that horses donât talk, the most unscrupulous trainers can act badly without much fear they will be called out.
Very few kids ride dressage which is another reason I believe there is not as much abuse in dressage. Most dressage people (not all but most) are older and have been around the horse world a bit. A large percentage of them are stereotypically type A and want to learn as much as they can. With very few exceptions they at least know how to put on a bridle and what size and type bit their horse wears.
We all know that vets learn a ton more in vet school than being able to see if a horse is off. To educate your eye to spotting lameness, someone does not need years of vet school. It couldnât hurt the industry if parents were encouraged to learn something. I recently saw a mom watching her daughter at the âcruel ringâ. This horse was way more broken than most. You could literally tell he was not right not just at the trot but at the walk and the canter. His canter was so labored and irregular it was scary. I was worried for the kid at every jump that the horse might fall on her. The mom was all smiles and proud and commenting on what a beautiful mover the horse was. It broke my heart.
You keep complaining that you saw all this at what you terms the âcruel ringâ and at former H/J barn that you were at.
But what if anything did you do about it? Did you speak to anyone? Did you speak up? Did you take the opportunity to âeducateâ anyone, with your knowledge?
Curious minds would like to know.
Eventer here, but as a re-rider, I was tested at my first recognized, at a small local HT, at BN, in the pouring rain, after my mare decided that Airs Above the Ground were the next movement called for due to a murder plant near C!
No one said anything about the girl riding the horse that looked like he may fall over. However, as is often the case I heard a couple whispers. If I had known that mom I would have tried to find a delicate way to approach her daughterâs safety, but I did not. I did know the trainer who has been around for 30 plus years and as far as I am concerned is one of the worst repeat offenders in my area. There would be no point in saying anything to them. They once joked with me that a âhorse was so lame, it looked soundâ. Over the years, I have gotten through to a couple of people who were riding very broken horses. However, I have also gotten very callous responses including, âHeâs Alpoâ from a teenage girl who was injecting the crap out of her lane junior jumper. I have also been told that they know their horse is lame but it is fine to ride/jump him because he has a pampered life when they are not riding him. Or that their horse likes it. He doesnât want to step down or retire. Or even this- a lady told me that the horse was going to be ridden because it cost a lot of money. There is a very engrained callous attitude within a significant part of the culture. Not everyone of course, but too many. And I do think with many being more hands off in the horse care and horsemanship this only gets worse.
And yes, I did email pretty much everyone on the USEF board about my concerns with horse welfare. No one responded.
the list of shows tested is published after the end of each show year. You can easily see what type shows are done
So basically a lot of what you know has been through heresay, jokes or teenage girls?
Define âInjecting the crap out ofâŠâ
I couldnât tell in the last statement whether you were told by the owner or by someone else. If it is from the owner and actually true itâs obviously unacceptable.
Iâve been riding for 40 years. And while I agree with you that something needs to be done in the H/Js donât be so naive to think that none of this is going on in other disciplines or that itâs minimal. Do HJâs do more more of it. I donât know- are there stats? Stuff can be happening at home which wonât show up at horse shows (ex. YR dressage horses that never get turned out because âthey might get hurtâ.)
I believe that the first three placings should be tested in all divisions in the hunters and the derbies. I know stuff goes on in the top hunter barns where I am because Iâve talked to people whoâve boarded/worked there. At the last show I was at this month, I personally didnât see any lame horses. But that could mean a. they werenât lame, b. they had something in their system to mask it, or c. I just wasnât there when the all these lame horses went into the ring.
I did see drug testers. They were very visible. They were actively testing.
My horse looked liked he was falling asleep at the ingate. It was hot and it was the end of a two week show (yes I took him home for a couple of days in the middle so he could get some turnout) and I was very aware that he looked like he was sedated. He was certainly not. But someone could have easily and understandable thought Horse had been given something. Would you have assumed he was drugged? What if someone had told you he was drugged- would you have believed them?
Last time a personal horse was tested was maybe 2009? I go to about 10 weeks of shows a year with my personal horse now and have never been tested.
I used to groom in SoCal and in the PNW. I canât recall where, but I do recall having a horse in my care testing one time while grooming professionally.
Part of my argument for the testing of top 3 (somehow, be it random within the top 3) is that no one is drugging to lose. Yet, IME the random testing happens low in the placings.
So you sat by and let the whispers go and YOU didnât say anything, but chose to come on here and complain. Got it.
So again you chose to do nothing except come on here and complain.
I think you are choosing to post things like to see if it causes a reaction to your continued posting of how awful everyone is to their horses and your stand on they should be retired and live out a happy life in rolling green acres, but yet you fail to address who would do that or where that money would come from. Are you stepping up to start that retirement farm?
But did you complain to anyone at the show where you witness these lame horses? Again No?
I, for one, am starting to see a pattern to your posting. So I ask myself under my breath what ribbon didnât you or one of your associates/friends not get and now you are on this crusade on how horrible the H/J world is.
But as it says above I am just a horse of course.
This seems like a reasonable reform to instituteâespecially since it existed in some zones in the past. It also would require minimal logistics to implement (unlike having a bajillion vets to evaluate soundness)âit might not make a huge difference, but it would at least limit some overuse (not just in the ring, but also warming up for the rider).
I mean, Iâm sure people will complain âthis advantages people with multiple horsesâ of course but from a horse welfare standpoint it would seem beneficial.
while no one may be âdrugging to loseâ they are drugging to quiet and a miscalculation of that may result in lesser performance. The also rans may ,at any given time, include horses that were not performing to their best due to chemicals
Our barn had a mare with narcolepsy (yes, under vet careâŠnot that thereâs much to do) who was tested nearly every time out at an A show. Should there be more testing? Sure⊠but that means more $$ for testers, labs, etc. Are we all willing to pay for that? So much bitching about the costs of showing already, all those âfeesâ! We all, including the OP, want MORE done. So, be the change: get involved in your local organization, get elected to that board, advocate realistic modifications, take the pulse of the competitor, talk to barns/trainers about what they need or want in shows. Donât just whinge on a horse forum!
I never had issue with paying drug fee and would support paying more. I understand that some of these testing fees goes to researching the new drugs and the new testing needed to keep in step with the next great thing people pump into their horses. Having worked in drug development I understand the complexity of developing assays and verifiable testing.
I am happy for my money to support that
USEF didnât create SS, it wasnât their choice, but mandated by Congress, so b*tching about the cost is pointless.
So hereâs a couple thoughts from someone who braids on the A circuit (so I see a good bit of what goes on (or doesnât) between dark and noon the next day), rides and braids on the national breed circuit.
-There is abuse in every breed, and every discipline, of varying magnitudes, and different flavors. Usually what you see in public, itâs worse behind closed doors. Not to turn a blind eye to lesser forms of abuse, but I have far more of a problem with yanking/spuring/whipping/beating than I do with gasp draw reins or an elevator bit (both of which have perfectly valid reasons for use). One does not negate the other, but we should definitely start with the blatant outright visible abuse first, then start pealing the layers of the onion.
-I see over-longing in the breed show scene, but not the open HJ. I can often see the longing pens from where I braid and what I see (from my limited sample size, in my region) are educated grooms with well behaved sound horses, often in side reins, longing in BIG circles for 10-15 minutes. On the breed circuits, we cannot longe in any type of rig, and horses are often packed in very tight (small circles) and worked for upwards of an hour or more as they flail around/cross canter/do very little to use themselves. Iâve found from working in longing rigs at home, a horse often burns off energy pretty quick in a longing rig because they have to use themselves properly. Some horses (in both worlds) need to longe just to blow off steam, some need to get rid of excess energy in order to be able to focus, some have owners who cannot get around without a dead tired, physically exhausted animal; the later of which is a whole different conversation, and I see more on the breed circuits. but the vast majority I see in the HJ world are just out for a brisk and enjoyable trot. After all, most of these places donât have turn out availableâŠ
-We cannot as accurately judge a BCS from pictures as the proper way to score a horse is to actually put hands on them. I find it a bit of a waste of key strokes arguing about a BCS based on a photo. I think the mare looks lovely. Putting hands on her would break the tie as to whether sheâs a 6 or an 8.
-On the A circuit, I find far more under weight, and especially under-muscled, horses than I do over weight.
-I donât deny that there is drug use across the board. But donât forget that bute comes in an injectable. We use injectable bute for several horses for a multitude of reasons. If you take 15-20 horses to a show, that can lead to a full sharps container really quick.
-Granted I donât have eyes on every stall every night/early morning. But I have yet to see jugs of random cocktails being administered at whim so that Suzy-Canât-Ride can get Pooky around a pile of poles course without incident. On the breed circuit? Iâve had trainers come in the stall while Iâm braiding and inject things, non-discreetly, very shortly before their class. Iâm not aware of anything that can be legally administered that close to a class. I admittedly do need to talk with show management on how to best bring these types of things to their attentionâŠ
-I donât consider Perfect Prep and those type of OTC pastes to be âdruggingâ as they seem to do very little. If a horse is deficient in magnesium, sure maybe it fills some gaps for a short time (maybe). Iâve tried various prep products on a hot horse before with no visible difference; one even made him worse. Iâve had one very green mare that it helped her focus. But by no means have I ever seen a horse look sedate from it. If those things work for some horses, good for them. If it makes the nervous middle aged ammy feel better via placebo, go ahead and spend your money. I donât feel like those products are at all the most nefarious thing youâll see on any show circuit. It may help some, itâs likely a wast of money for most.
-ETA. I tend to canter straight off without first trotting because I hate how I do trot-to-canter transitions. Should I get better at them? absolutely. Do I work on them? Yes. Do I make a smoother transition going walk-to-canter? Damn straight. So I use it.
-Iâm mostly just here for the popcorn. And I have yet to receive any. So, thatâs disappointingâŠ
And that blanket assumption and condemnation is not insulting?
And the earlier suggestion that vets be hired? How much more are you willing to pay in show fees to support hiring multiple vets for entire days? And that suggestion all exhibitors be required to accept the vets decision and sign a release? Better run that by a lawyer.
USEF/ USHJA is a (luxury) hobby club with no authority outside the grounds of shows they regulate on dates the show operates. They are not law enforcement. The only way to change anything is via them through rule changes.
happy now? now soda or beer with that
Most dressage barns are not FEI competitors. There are only about 800 ranked dressage people worldwide ranked in FEI events which means riding in CDI.
However yes, many dressage barns ride FEI tests, PSG and above. But they are riding these tests under the rules of the national bodies, meaning USEF or EC, not FEI.
Riding an FEI test at a USEF or EC show does not make you âan FEI riderâ in the same sense as competing in CDI. Though Iâm sure some coaches blue the difference for their impressionable clientele!
