I meant dex(or any med) cant or should not be given less than 12 hours out.
We had one that randomly broke out in hives a few weeks ago. turns out he was allergic to fly spray, which he had been getting liberally sprayed with 
the show vet told me that we could do it, he didnât have to. he isnât my favorite vet, but youre kind of stuck sometimes. we had him do it anyway
1 Like
Well, it sounds like youâre just a cruel person. /s
P.S. Good program!
So⌠you can contradict yourself, use hearsay, rumors and barn gossip as facts, do not remember important details and yet assert that you are correct about everything else. You can point fingers and complain and yet not actually do much of anything.
Got it.
Barn gossip could have cost me a cherished job with one farm once. It was based on hearsay and rumors and not at all factual⌠but that did not matter to those making accusations and pointing fingers (not just at me). And yes - it was related to drugs that we did not even have with us at that big regional show. The same drugs that we did not have that we were not injecting in massive doses (as they claimed) and so on and so forth.
We did not even have that stuff at home. But the gossip knew better.
The winner of every class was also tested. Not sure if they still do thatâŚ
18 Likes
Judges whistling out lame horses is not that rare, especially at the FEI level. Many remember the elimination of Leslie Morse and Kingston at the 2018 WEG. He passed the jog, but was clearly lame in the test.
As for drugging horses, that may be happening, but thereâs a zero tolerance policy, which is something the Hunter discipline hasnât put in place (yet).
Interesting article from Eurodressage about judges apologizing for eliminating horses.
https://www.eurodressage.com/index.php/2017/04/20/apologetic-judges-im-sorry-so-sorry
"Unlevel horses appear in the show ring once in a while and are most of the time allowed to complete their test. Their unlevel mechanic doesnât come through in all movements; most often it is seen in the trot half passes and voltes, or in the trot extensions. This is often excused with the statement that the horse is âbridle lameâ.
âI wonder whether itâs truly the animal welfarists who put the pressure on the judges? There is also the financial argument of the expensive price riders pay to compete internationally. Maybe judges tolerate those few uneven steps from an economic point of view, going against the grain of animal welfare?â
Late to this thread but I did the hunters for more than 3 decades and I saw it all. Stacking nsaids to get a lame horse into the ring at Devon with a very respected trainer mainlining the bute and banamine. That one disappeared after Devon. Broken. BTW, it was a suspensory tear. There wasnât enough Bute and Banamine to make that poor bastard sound. No vet prescribed that. There were, and still are, vets who prescribe barn medications.
Lovely horses foundered due to excessive use of Dex because dumbass trainers thought it worked like Benadryl (itâs for hives and thatâs allergies). 20 ccâs should make him quiet.
Has it changed for the better? For sure! Have I witnessed trainers giving a horse a drug because they heard about it from another trainer at the ingate? You betcha!
I guess thatâs my biggest personal horror story. That trainers with no formal education in basic anatomy and physiology or pharmaceutical training are making these decisions for clientsâ horses. Go look at some of the bills. There is a line for medication with no detail.
I walked into a show one day and saw that my horse was given bute and robaxin without my knowledge. He was prone to ulcers. I erased it off the board and told the trainer any meds you run by me. Next time horse is gone.
Think about it. Horse arrives Tuesday and does the warmup classes. Bute and robaxin that night. Itâs an older A/O horse so it does the performance or conformation division. If itâs lucky it does one day, if not, itâs double division time. Rinse and repeat meds Wed - Sat or Sunday. This may happen two or three weeks in a row.
The contributors on this forum are much more knowledgeable and involved than many others so their point of view is different. I was involved, my trainer knew it and he may have been a little afraid of me. .
The OP has good points but they are obliterated by the delivery. We do need change but trot ups for soundness is a logistical nightmare.
The hunter show scene in particular has an innate, unintentional chance of abuse due to the nature of the horse shows. Multi-week extravaganzas result in horses showing too many days and weeks in a row. I would like to see USHJA put in limits but thatâs not likely to happen because that organization is run for horse show managers and the business model says the more classes Dobbin does the better the bottom line.
Color me cynical.
Itâs why my discipline is now dressage.
20 Likes
Deleted as no longer relevant, thread moved onâŚ
The Horse and Rider Advocates Committee of USHJA actually did a study of the average number of classes that individual horses were being shown in per day at USEF shows, and the results surprised usâŚthere are relatively few numbers of horses being shown in massive numbers of classes at any given USEF show. I have forgotten what the average number of classes per day was, but it wasnât the huge number that we suspected it would be. It seems that, if you look at the data, most trainers are aware of the risks of overshowing, and are already self-policing.
And also, despite all the horror stories, the âcruel ringâ ainât necessarily so either. I once sold a young horse to a trainer, who decided after the fact that she didnât like the horse after all, and (of course), it was all my fault. That particular horse got sold âdown the roadâ, and I was quite distressed when I learned this. Several years later, I was watching the Maclay Finals during one of the years that it was held at the Meadowlands, and who should I see trot into the ring and jump a lovely round for itâs riderâŚmy old horse, looking shiny and fat, and happily doing itâs job. Fast forward a few more years (like about ten), and I was judging a show at LAEC in Burbank, and on my way back to my ring after a bathroom break, I saw a very shiny fat horse finish itâs round in the Pre-Pre Adult Hunters, and his owner hopped off and immediately began showering him with treats and hugs. I thought to myselfâŚWow, that horse sure looks good, and is clearly loved. And then I looked again. It was that very same horse that I bred, trained and owned a LONG time ago. There he was, fat as a tick, and making his âMomâ a very happy Ammie. I introduced myself to the lady, and told her that I had bred and owned her horse a gazillion years ago. She was thrilled to hear this, and couldnât wait to tell me how much she loved this wonderful creature. So thenâŚnot being able to stand myself with curiosity, I played dumb, and asked her how old the horse was now. âWellâ, she beamed, âSince I just bought him, and had him a PPE done, my trainer told me that the vet said that he was 14 or 15âŚa PERFECT age for my first show horse!â I almost fell overâŚafter doing a bit of mental math, I figure that guy had to be somewhere in the 27-28 year range in age! But Hey, here he was, doing his job, the fences a bit lower, but he looked sound, he was fat an happy, and he had an owner who doted on him. So, maybe there is some justice in the world after all, and at least for that time in his life, my old horse had a great life, job, and he was loved and cared for. A happy ending, at least in this case!
24 Likes
Some people really love to bash upper level H/J trainers here, but the truth is, that if you have very expensive, high end horses, we treat them like the royalty they are! The biggest barns travel with their own farriers, chiros, etc and make sure those horses are cared for. High level jumpers do maybe 3 classes a week, if that. Rarely more than 1 a day, then its bathed, cold hosed, iced, bandaged, meds if allowed, etc. Same for the hunters
Are there bad actors? Of course. But they arenât usually the winning barns, contrary to popular belief. And the USEF stewards do a good job watching the barns and rings for abuse, lameness, and misconduct. Drug testers go to shows every week. We get tested all the time
The worst abuse, in my experience, is at lower level, unrated shows, where there are no protections.
21 Likes
So Iâve been stepping a little into the dressage world from the Eventing world. I know 100% the OP would probably judge my horse to be lame, she has historically crappy stifles (mostly right) and sometimes takes a second to warm up enough to use her right hind correctly and looks dead lame at first. OP would likely say Iâm âholding her togetherâ to make her sound, where Iâm actually just encouraging her to loosen up then use her hind end and lift her back so she has an easier time carrying me around. I know her pain reactions quite well, and she has been checked up the wazoo by multiple vets. No pain, nsaids do nothing to change it. But Iâm always a bit self conscious because of these judgey types.
I did have one time at a recognized show where the judge called me over after my test. Her scribe was apparently a vet who told me my horse was lame and I needed to stop riding her and do something about it or I would ruin her (in the snottiest way possible). The judge didnât ring me out, but I was so confused, she had felt fine. I had about ten people, including my trainer and other riders, watch her lunge and trot up later, then watch us ride. I was totally freaking out, as she had been fantastic the whole time, not even any slow sticky warm ups . Nope, she was 100% sound, better than ever. Finally got around to watching the video. Note, I had had a panic attack in the middle of the test (totally unrelated, they happen at random times), and while I thought Iâd stayed pretty good through it, I had tensed up and was basically squeezing the reins every other stride, which, you guessed it, made it look like she had a bit of a head bob. 
My point is, you might think you can recognize lameness. But Iâd be careful being so judgemental, lameness is very nuanced. I can make any horse look lame if I analyze it long enough.
That was my first recognized show. Luckily, besides that one test, we rode decently the rest of the show and had some lovely comments and good scores (for the little downhill pony) from other judges. No other head bobbing incidents, or I might have been scared off 
9 Likes
have you tried either blistering the stifles or doing surgery?
Trust me, there are many schoolmasters being held together with duct tape and prayer in the dressage world, too. But on the whole I think most ammy owner/riders are more involved in any decision-making.
My recent conversations with USEF drug folks indicated that use of Dex within whatever the detection period is (canât remember off the top of my head) requires filling out a drug report. Use within 12 hours of a class is an absolute no-no. (Horse has hives. As yet we havenât discovered what he is allergic to. Breathing air, apparently⌠Therapeutic dose of Dex seems to have no discernable sedative effect on him!)
2 Likes
Can you point me to any lawsuits over this?
LOL dex has, without fail, made every one of mine very bright and happy, and weâve had a run of itchy swollen eyes and swollen legs lately that have required vet calls and dex.
1 Like
Horses do not live on dexamethasone. If you read the legal limit and time it may be administered, you would see that
1 Like
There are numerous protections in place at rated shows, yet we continue to have horses testing positive with BNTâs. Why is that ? And thereâs still the lunging debate, which should be easy to take care of, but isnât. Have you read the thread about about Eric Lamaze and this post: He would pole the snot out of the horses and his poor groom had to patch them up and walk them over to the WEF FEI barn and use all the tricks to pass the jog. And these were already electric careful horses. The way he treated people who worked for him and of course the horses was despicable.
A friend of mine used to own a large training facility, with room for 2-3 trainers. At one point two trainers were there, one who was well known in the region and specialized in young riders and ponies, showing the A circuit. After several months, my friend asked the pony trainer to move out. The ponies were drugged before they got on the big vans to go to the shows, and not all reacted well to the injections. My friend wanted no part of it.
So yes, the bad folks ARE at the winning barns, as well as the less successful ones.
You mentioned that in your experience, the worst abuse is at the lower level, unrated shows, where there are no protections. What kind of abuse are you referring to ?
3 Likes
Ok, Iâll bite
Eric Lamaze has already proven to be a liar. Heâs a POS, we can all agree to that. That doesnât mean the majority of the BNTâs are the same. Also, it is my understanding that FEI horses have to live and school in the cordoned off FEI area. If I am wrong about this, I stand corrected. I donât own or train any FEI level horses. Poling isnât legal on the show grounds anywhere.
No reputable trainer in their right mind would drug ponies before taking them to an A show. Are there trainers who might? Of course. But we are talking about the bad apples. Larry might have done that, but who knows? But your average A/AA trainer? No way.
What do you even mean by âdruggingâ? Sedation? Banamine, bute, ulcergard, equioxx, Robaxin; these are all drugs, and all legal when given in the legal dosages.
If you read the back of the USEF magazine, the part where all the suspensions and fine are posted, there are as many Arabian, Saddlebred, eventing, âbreedâ trainer and dressage trainers set down as there are H/J trainers or participants. There are a LOT more H/J members in the USEF,
too.
At the small. local circuit shows, at least here in the Chicagoland area, well, they are known to be the circuit for that horse that goes better on a half cc. Or needs more than the legal dose of banamine to stay sound. And, I know from experience, the horses do every damn division they can enter. Itâs insane. That is abuse
5 Likes
There was no bait, so nothing for you to bite.
Itâs just a discussion with valid points from both us.
The unrated county h/j show circuit I worked at years ago (in the show office) had one particular trainer with a large contingent of clients/horses. More than one of those horses competed in 18 classes over a two day show. Of course the clients (mostly parents) had no idea that it was excessive. Our state requires drug testing, but I donât know if she ever got caught. The trainer is still going to both rated and unrated shows. Nothing has changed.
2 Likes
IIRC there was a trainer that got banned (or asked not to come back) by one management company that put on county shows for putting horses in too many classes.
Same person a few years later had a horse that showed at one USEF show in the morning and got hauled over the mountain to show at a different show in the afternoon. Not sure if the second was a USEF show; seems like they were close enough geographically that the mileage rule would apply.
Our state local show association had to create a rule to prevent people from getting points from two different shows in one day when too many exhibitors were hustling from one venue to another to chase after those local year end awards.
3 Likes
The BNTs haul to local barns off site to âtune the horses upâ before a class (ie, to pole the crap out of them).
When HITS was at Balmoral, I learned that fact loud and clear, with my own eyeballs.
1 Like
