Self-policing is not working

[Calvincrowe]

OP - take a gander at the Reining world. They just approved sedation for competition.

[Peggy]

@NotOK

I honestly believe that the outbreaks of EHV and Stomatitis and whatever else

Not VSV. As far as I know it hasn’t shown up in any horse that’s recently been at a competition.

[NotOK]

Yeah and they often start the horses as babies and break them down young. Not a fan. Just because some dude might beat me and rape me doesn’t mean it is OK for another guy just to beat me. Whataboutism doesn’t make the first thing less wrong.

[NotOK]

If your horse just has some manageable arthritis and you do a proper warm up, give your horse proper support, and don’t ride him at a level that is too hard on him, you are not the culprit of which I speak. I am speaking of the horses that even with a good warmup are still obviously lame. There many of these especially in low level classes like the .70 and .80 jumpers. However, I too have seen numerous horses in medal finals etc that are not sound. People turn a blind eye or make a lot of excuses and deflections.

[NotOK]

Not recently, but many times in the past.

[NotOK]

I don’t know if this is true or not. I don’t have statistics or anything, but there is a lot more $$$ in the hj world today. There is also a lot more not knowledgeable riders out there showing a ton and spending a ton on buying horses. A lot of these people have no eye for soundness and turn all of the horse management to the trainers, many who drug the horses, often without the clients’ knowledge or consent. When I was a kid, all these low classes and divisions did not exist and horsemanship was more of a real thing. I already admitted that my trainers when I was a kid did drug our horses and it was standard practice. Like I said there was a horse show vet whose close relative was a successful trainer who would give the horses shots of “something they don’t test for”. This really has been and still is accepted practice with many HJ people.

[Calvincrowe]

I disagree with your anecdotal reporting on the state of HJ today. We can all provide stories both ways, many of which have reached “urban legend” status.

The money in reining/western disciplines is HJ level at the top, too.

[mvp]

@Foxglove

I am certain that at some time a lame, drugged horse was pinned in a class some place. However, as someone who was once involved in the H/J world --unless this is a very recent occurrence, you must be attending or watching different H/J shows than I am. Our horse was drug tested about every 3rd time we had him out --he always passed. I don’t know how horses are selected for drug tests, but we saw the drug testers out in force each day --we were extremely cautious about getting feed any place near drugs we kept in the barn (bute especially).

I never drugged a horse, none of my kids ever drugged a horse, our trainer(s) didn’t drug horses, --so “drugging as a standard industry practice” seems limited to you and your area.

We made no money showing, while my own horsemanship and riding ability were never spectacular, my kiddos did ride well enough to compete with the pros at the higher levels in both dressage and jumping. Our horses were never lunged to death, drugged, or ridden by a pro —we kept them at home, and hauled to shows ourselves. We took advice from trainers. Again, not sure where you are located that this is common, and maybe it is these days —but I still have one kid in the game -and again, she does not drug her horse, lunge it to death, or have it ridden by a pro. She does well.

Unless the OP is in Aiken, SC, you can be sure drugging isn’t limited to just her area.

I work at a tack store here and we do a brisk business in all of the variations of Perfect Prep (and similar products) that are out there. Oh, and same for tube of Omeprazole on show weekends.

You may be exception to the rule; I doubt the OP is, at least with respect to drugging.

She might be right about the connection between Dex and horse pandemics. I knew all the horses who had scratches all.the.time “because the wash racks at horse shows are dirty” was bullsh!t.

I haven’t watched enough H/J shows lately to know if people are showing very lame horses. But when I see a horse that walks into the ring, never trots but instead goes straight to the canter, I wonder if I’m seeing a somewhat lame horse shown by a smart rider.

[mvp]

With[quote=“steelerino, post:3, topic:787497, full:true”]

@NotOK

I am over all the horse abuse BS that is rampant in the horse world, but especially in the HJ world. I have contacted USEF and been blown off. I am over it. It is time that someone does a big expose on all this abuse.

1. Many, many horses are shown quite lame and judges, officials, trainers, other participants turn a blind eye. Especially in the lower-level jumper and hunter classes, a large percentage of the horses are obviously lame or neurologic, and I almost never see them whistled out. In fact, if you have a half decent eye, you will see lame horses pin in flat classes and even in big medal finals etc. The excuses that the horse may be rein lame, or just stiff, or have a mechanical issue are basically bull. Most of them are obviously in pain, and signs such as pinned ears, ringing tails, an obvious head bop are there. As far as I am concerned, “serviceably sound” in the HJ world means the horse will still do the job and does not take into consideration whether or not the horse should even be asked to do this job. “A horse ready to move down” usually means it is too lame to do what we want now but let’s see if we can pawn him off on someone who doesn’t want to jump as high." People who could very easily afford to retire their lame horses, pass them down the line instead. Those who don’t are the exception, not the rule. People show horses in multiple over fence classes that are lame enough I would not ride them period. It happens al the time. This needs to stop.
2. Drugging horses is “standard industry practice”. This has been the case for as long as I can remember in the hunter world, but it is only getting worse. Horses now practically live on dexamethasone to sedate them. This drug really lowers their immune system. I honestly believe that the outbreaks of EHV and Stomatitis and whatever else are partly due to the fact that these drugged horses have crap immune systems. How USEF turns a blind eye to this is ridiculous.
3. One of the reasons the horses are drugged so much, besides the fact that judges reward horses that act like Stepford Wives, is because it is all about the show, show, show and money, money, money. Horsemanship is a dying art. Good riding is reserved for the very few, and the average competitor cannot ride a horse that is not lunged to death, drugged, or ridden most of the time by a pro (or all three). Many people treat the horses like vehicles. Many kids have a string of horses and a true connection to none. Horses are just a status symbol, a vehicle, or something to do.

You all remember the outcry about the Pentathlon? Imagine what the public would think about all the very privileged people parading around on lame drugged horses?

QFP
[/quote]

With respect to the OP’s last point. She/he forgot the Humble pony-- OD’ed on IV magnesium at a stall at the Devon horse so in the AM. Also so that a kid could compete in that prestigious horse show. You can not like the OP if you don’t want to, but the Humble thing actually happened and supports her last point about the sheer unnecessariness of it all.

[Tha_Ridge]

If the OP thinks Dex is the “legal” drug du jour, then I think they aren’t nearly as plugged into the scene as they seem to think. I do think some of the things they’ve mentioned are issues, but absolutely zero viable solutions or suggestions, just a lot of finger pointing and untrue assumptions.

[NotOK]

You are correct that I am not very plugged in currently. I have been competing FEI dressage for several years. However, I have relatives competing HJ on both coasts. Perfect prep and Dex are prevalently used, and I am sure many things I am not privy to. I focus a lot of Dex because over the years I have used it for legitimate reasons like asthma, hives etc and I know how it lowers the immune system and has potentially nasty side effects. I anecdotally do feel there is a likely a connection between all the drugs and stress the hj show horses are under and outbreaks like stomatitis. As for the lameness, I have attended many shows on both coasts and witnessed that first hand. I also worked as a pro in the hj world many years ago and have numerous stories of people drugging horses and competing lame horses that I witnessed. My knowledge of different lamenesses and my eye for lameness I will put up against many top trainers, judges and pros. Posts like this one just confirm that changes are very unlikely until they are forced from the outside. Sad but true.

[NotOK]

Oh, and I offered a lot of solutions earlier. I forgot to include changing the way hunters are judged so obese and sedated horses aren’t rewarded, but that would help too.

[Hoofbeat_Heartbeat]

I have an AO Hunter that I think has more, “Dutch Harness Horse” than “Dutch Warmblood”. I did not know it was possible for a horse to articulate each joint as much as they are able to, until I got him

[Tha_Ridge]

@NotOK

I focus a lot of Dex because over the years I have used it for legitimate reasons like asthma, hives etc and I know how it lowers the immune system and has potentially nasty side effects.

You’ve been told, multiple times now, that no one is using dex anymore in any extreme amount so as to cause nasty side effects. And, as you note yourself, it’s a drug with genuine therapeutic applications in show horses, so what exactly do you want? I personally haven’t seen very many obese hunters lately either. The grand junior hunter at finals was neither sedate or obese to me: https://www.instagram.com/p/CuLo4pfAIMd/

[NotOK]

Using Dex in the allowable amount over and over again can easily cause nasty side effects. Moreover, using a drug for an off label use because people are bad riders is beyond unethical when it can easily screw up the immune system and cause other problems when used regularly.

[Tha_Ridge]

Again, what is your solution, and why the sole fixation on dex? `

[Bluey]

@NotOK

Plenty. I am old. I have competed and trained in HJ, Eventing, Dressage and some breed shows. I competed HJ over 20 years ago when it was common practice for a horse show vet to give our hunters “something they can’t test for” at the friggen shows and then another bill from the trainer. I am not saying you don’t see lame horses competing in other disciplines but it is much less. Dressage horses for example are judged specifically on their gaits so lame is no good. Be honest how many times have you seen a trainer tell a student not to trot; go straight to the canter? Why are some divisions not jogged? The hunter crowd loves drugs as far as I can see. A few years ago it was Depo, now Dex and whatever else. Read through the offenses and those who get caught. They are way disproportionately HJ people. Even the top of the game is caught for drugs, cocaine McClain etc etc.

Just a note, Depo- just means whatever is there is provided as a long lasting product, Depo-Medrol is a corticosteroid preparation as a long lasting one of your “Dex” drugs.

Getting basic facts straight helps.

[fivestrideline]

@NotOK

You are correct that I am not very plugged in currently.

Well, then.

[IPEsq]

I think the OP meant Depo Provera.

I had a nice hunter that almost always walked in and then picked up the canter… because for some reason we were much more likely to get a wrong lead if we trotted first. But sure, I’ve ridden some stepping down jumpers turned eq horses and the like that needed to canter first in the warmup because of creaky hocks. That was back before we did joint injections nearly as much as is done now (and also when the options were not as good for the joint as many products are now). Horses got bute or banamine or methocarbamol every night at the show whether they really needed it or not. Many got lunged in the morning. I never found Dex to be helpful for calming but know people who used it that way. Perhaps there are more clueless riders/customers now, I dunno. There have always been people who treated horses more as equipment than living beings. I also know some “trainers” with no eye for lameness. But none of this is new.

And actually, I think having some of these low level divisions and step down jobs here in the U.S. (including in dressage and other disciplines) provides a safer, longer useful life for a lot of horses. This has created a huge market and provides some people with saintly teachers that a lot of people would love to have the privilege and opportunity to own/lease/ride.

[NotOK]

I had already stated this to which I would add to change the rules of hunters so sedated horses are not the ideal.

NotOK

8h

“I can think of a lot of things.

USEF could require a vet (who is not in anyone’s pocket) to pass each horse as suitable for showing.

There could be a zero tolerance for any drug that can act as a sedative like Dex.

The punishment for getting caught drugging horses could be way more significant, like someone should not be allowed on a team that represents our country if they have been found guilty of drugging or abusing horses. The fines and bans for lower level players also need to be way higher.

People could have to qualify to ride at the level they are showing like in Europe. (All the wealthy people who think they can buy anything, and all the professionals who cater to them can suck it up).

There could be a pay to play fee that is used to provide retirement for horses that are lame.

There could be a lot of pressure given, shaming those who could afford to retire lame horses but instead either continue to show them or pass them off to someone else. This is such an accepted practice and should not be.

There could be a limit on how many shows or how often a horse can be shown. Showing for months at a time is cruel and asking for lame unhappy horses.

*I am not holding my breath that USEF will do any of these things. I have brought up my concerns and never gotten any response to my emails. They seem so worried about Safesport, the people’s welfare, and quite frankly very little about the horses’ welfare. Therefore, perhaps someone needs to blow the lid off this abusive industry. A documentary would be great or just someone who films lame horses and plasters them all over social media. If the general public gets a wind of all the celebs and rich people who abuse horses, it will take on a life of its own.”