Self-policing is not working

[Davignport]

It is a shame that the welfare of the horse always comes in second behind winning.

[Bristol_Bay]

Still, impossible to prove as any prospective buyer would do a PPE.

[hoopoe]

@Bristol_Bay

Really? What kind of damages would one expect?

a lollipop and a sticker would be my judgement

[Willesdon]

A 2023 Report “Social License And The Involvement Of Horses In Sport” published by World Horse Welfare showed that in the UK only 2% of the population has regular contact with horses, one-fifth thinks using horses in sport is unacceptable and another two-fifths accepts the use of horses in sport but only if welfare and safety are improved. So perhaps the thing we need to consider is that it is only by continually improving welfare and standards, through culture change and regulation, that horse sports will be able to retain their critical social license and protect their future.

To me, as an outsider but a persistent reader of COTH fora, the USEF as the National Governing Body does not seem to be transparent, strategic, responsive or even able to demonstrate practical concern for horse welfare. The discussion initiated by OP, I believe, is a very important one.

[Janet]

@NotOK

Why can’t USEF insulate the judges? Why can’t it be part of the general show agreement that no one can seek recourse if a judge whistles out or eliminates a horse they deem lame?

I am pretty sure the USEF DOES protect the judges, in the sense that no one can protest (to the USEF) the judge’s determination that the horse is lame.

But there is nothing the USEF can do to prevent someone from bringing suit in the courts.

[Janet]

@StormyDay

Oh okay I thought you meant a different thread. I guess I don’t understand how it’s relevant to the conversation here

Sorry I wasn’t clearer.

I was responding to your statement that “Some horses are just built thick.”

While the individual horse’s metabolism definitely has an effect. Bo and Matilda show that a horse that is not fed enough gets VERY thin, regardless of the metabolism.

But I agree that some horses DO have metabolisms that make it difficult to get the weight off. My now-diagnosed with EMS / IR Connemara x TB was an 8 on a diet of nothing more than pasture and a ration balancer. But since being diagnosed, taken off pasture (except 1-2 hrs in an eaten-down paddock with a muzzle), given a limited amount of low-sucran hay, and put on medications (InsulinWise and Thyro-L) she has lost 6 inches in girth, and is much more healthy weight (as well as becoming much friendlier).

[NotOK]

That is not protection. There should be an ability to make it part of the show agreement that a judge’s day is final and no one may take legal action against a judge for a determination that a horse is not sound to compete.

[NotOK]

Thank you. I agree. I am so over the callous tone of so many in this industry. I really do believe due to the reticence to make meaningful change, bigger changes will be made from the outside. If you research it, public outcry made fox hunting banned in the UK and branding in the Netherlands. As an FEI rider, I cannot give my horse any of the drugs USEF allows. If Hj is so powerful and doesn’t want to comply to horse-welfare reforms, I suppose they can go the route of Big Lick and run their own show. I would not mind seeing them gone, because as a competing member of USEF, I don’t like being associated with this degree of abuse. I 100 percent agree that there are abuses in all horse sports, but still hold strongly (as someone with extensive intimate knowledge of more than one discipline) that HJ is far and away the worst abuser of drugs, over showing, and riding lame horses way too hard of all the Olympic disciplines.

[danhelm441]

@GraceLikeRain

I have a whole lot of unsavory knowledge about a whole lot of wealthy horse people. There is nothing that I can do with that information other than black list myself and tarnish my own reputation. Wealthy people are Teflon to accountability. It’s just the way the world works. You can hate it all you want but ranting and airing dirty laundry has done little to change things.

Can you anonymize the anecdotes and spiII the tea? Or are they too niche to be anonymize-abIe?

[StormyDay]

@Janet

@StormyDay

Oh okay I thought you meant a different thread. I guess I don’t understand how it’s relevant to the conversation here

Sorry I wasn’t clearer.

I was responding to your statement that “Some horses are just built thick.”

While the individual horse’s metabolism definitely has an effect. Bo and Matilda show that a horse that is not fed enough gets VERY thin, regardless of the metabolism.

But I agree that some horses DO have metabolisms that make it difficult to get the weight off. My now-diagnosed with EMS / IR Connemara x TB was an 8 on a diet of nothing more than pasture and a ration balancer. But since being diagnosed, taken off pasture (except 1-2 hrs in an eaten-down paddock with a muzzle), given a limited amount of low-sucran hay, and put on medications (InsulinWise and Thyro-L) she has lost 6 inches in girth, and is much more healthy weight (as well as becoming much friendlier).

I’m not referring to metabolism as much as bone structure. I’m going to link the photo below. You can see rib outline, she has a defined shoulder. That’s not a fat horse. What she does have is a higher SI than a lot of horses and a shorter bum, which gives the look of it being very round.

I just think this whole thing is pretty strange, to be going after hunter horses for being fat, especially ones that aren’t fat.

[Janet]

I think that h/j riders thinking fat h/j horses are “not fat” is part of the problem.

[Foitin]

This is an excellent conversation. The best way to know about USEF H/J shows is to attend them regularly. I’d gather many people posting here are at shows currently, were at one last week, and will be at another soon. Without specific examples, there are a lot of straw men here as regards H/J practices and competitions. Today I showed a horse I usually lease out in the low adult hunters (2’6’’). I watched most of the horses go and there were a good number of rider mistakes (I trotted in the first round, just sayin’), but not a single dead (over-prepped, drugged, in pain limping) horse. Indeed, many of the horses were really sparky and a little extra. This is at a low key, lower-attendance AA show.

[NotOK]

Perhaps part of the issue is not a denial of the issue of lameness but rather a lack of education or knowledge of lameness. I am skilled at seeing lameness. From hip hikes to dragging toes to shortened strides to head bobs, I see it. I also have enough experience riding enough different horses over the years that I can feel when a horse isn’t right. I will put my eye up against most trainers and judges. And any HJ show on either coast that I have attended ever has had a lot of lame horses competing. By a lame horse, I mean one that would score a 2+ or 3 on the lameness scale, as in you can see the gait abnormality rather consistently or quite consistently on a straight line in trot. It is true that I also see lame horses at breed shows, dressage show, and in most clinics of whatever discipline I attend. The worst culprit are the low hunter and jumper arenas, but it goes all the way up and across disciplines. Perhaps the least that USEF could do to show that they care even a little bit as much about horses as they do about $$$ and people is to require a sort of SafeSport training for lameness awareness for all members of all disciplines. Even the parents of junior riders should be required to pass this training that would educate people on identifying lameness. The reason for this is many parents have no idea that the trainer has their kid showing a broken horse. I can’t tell you how many times I have heard or been told that someone’s horse is sound when it is a 3 out of 5 lame. According to this article not being able to see lameness is an issue with most horse people. https://thehorse.com/192855/behavior-test-reveals-owners-miss-signs-of-lameness/?utm_medium=Behavior+enews&utm_source=Newsletter

[NotOK]

You could attend shows every week and not see lame horses if you don’t have the skills to identify lame horses.

[trubandloki]

@NotOK

You could attend shows every week and not see lame horses if you don’t have the skills to identify lame horses.

So now the problem is that no one who is not as special as you can see the lameness?

[NotOK]

Clearly not no one, but those who state that there were not lame horses showing at HJ shows (or at dressage shows or whatever other horse competition you want to include) either are in denial, lying, blind, or do not know how to see lameness.

[Tackpud]

@NotOK

I 100 percent agree that there are abuses in all horse sports, but still hold strongly (as someone with extensive intimate knowledge of more than one discipline) that HJ is far and away the worst abuser of drugs, over showing, and riding lame horses way too hard of all the Olympic disciplines.

Just to make a fine point since you are primarily singling out the hunter ring, hunters are not an Olympic discipline. Olympic level jumper competition is held under FEI drug and medication rules not USEF rules.

I agree there are lame horses competing that I probably wouldn’t show myself, but to put the onus of excusing them from the ring on the judge is not fair. Judges are not vets and often the competition vet is not available when a judge sees something questionable. Since the jog has been reduced to a trot circle while the judge is marking the card, there are probably some horses that get by which might have been pulled in a regular jog.

I would like to point out that I have seen my fair share of unsound horses at lower level dressage shows, so I am not pointing fingers at one discipline above the rest.

[NotOK]

Yes, what you are saying is true. Your post it completely reasonable.I think there should be a vet who has to clear every horse at a USEF show of all disciplines. I just also think that the judge should be protected against any legal action if they eliminate someone for unsoundness. I know that Hunters aren’t an Olympic discipline, but they are part of HJ and there is crossover in rides/trainers/barns. All USEF shows for any discipline should be governed by stricter rules more like FEI where drugs and lameness is not so permissible as is the case presently. And I too see plenty of lame dressage horses competing, mostly at the lower levels, but some at higher levels for sure. To me there is just something extra egregious about jumping a lame horse and taking it in multiple classes a day for several days of showing. It is not just the fact that someone is riding a lame horse but how often and how hard.

[IPEsq]

It would not be feasible time and scheduling-wise to do trot ups for every horse every day. I think that’s one reason why the lower rated divisions never had to jog for a ribbon either.

[NotOK]

I disagree. Horses generally warm up prior to going in a class. There is no reason that there could not be a vet to clear the horses to show by having them trot a little circle under saddle each way I think it would be fair to let the horses warm up first so if it is just stiffness they can warm out of it. It could be as simple as you have to do a trot test for soundness 3 rounds before you go or something. It would cost $$ for the vets etc, but have the potential to improve the horse welfare and overall culture.I would 100 percent welcome this at dressage shows as well.