Self-policing is not working

[Janet]

@NotOK

I just also think that the judge should be protected against any legal action if they eliminate someone for unsoundness.

Under my understanding of the US legal system, no private organization (not part of the government) can prevent someone from bringing legal action (for anything) in the court system.

On the other hand, several STATES have laws protecting horse-people from being liable for things related to the “inherent danger” of horses. But that doesn’t address “you said my horse is lame” suits.

On the third hand, all USEF Licensed Officials have Licensed Officials Liability Insurance (we pay for it as part of our annual license fee). I can’t find the fine print to see if that would protect a judge who is sued because “you said my horse is lame”

[blondewithchrome]

This horse is the one people were saying was too fat? And is an 8/10? Wow. She’s beautiful and athletic! I would NOT call this an 8. Maybe a 6.

[skydy]

@NotOK

I disagree. Horses generally warm up prior to going in a class. There is no reason that there could not be a vet to clear the horses to show by having them trot a little circle under saddle each way I think it would be fair to let the horses warm up first so if it is just stiffness they can warm out of it. It could be as simple as you have to do a trot test for soundness 3 rounds before you go or something. this at dressage shows as well.

Bolding mine.
If you attend large hunter shows, then you know that some classes have 25+ entries, don’t have ride times and can often go out of order. You really believe it would be simple to schedule this? I think it would be a nightmare for stewards and show management, as well as for the Vet.

[Peggy]

While I agree that there are less than sound horses competing in the US in a variety of disciplines at a variety of levels, including unrecognized, I don’t think it’s realistic to jog every horse every day.

Stewards do watch warmup rings. I was at a show recently where there was a dedicated steward for one of the jumper warmups in addition to several floating stewards. And I have seen stewards talk to people about lame horses, either on their own or based on a report.

I don’t agree with zero tolerance for analgesics and anti inflammatories at reasonable levels. People will turn to other means including nerving.

[wanderlust]

@Janet

I think that h/j riders thinking fat h/j horses are “not fat” is part of the problem.

Come on now. H/J people know when their horses are fat, they just happen to like them on the chunkier side. I have a horse who is decidedly fatter than this one (and this one, btw, is in absolutely lovely condition and is not in any way fat). She was recently body-scored as a 6 by my vet, who is a top sporthorse/lameness vet and also an upper level eventer. If she thought my horse needed a diet, she would most certainly tell me.

[Halternatively]

NotOK, while you speak as though you are an expert on all things hunter, are you unaware of opening courtesy circles and closing circles to be done on a loose rein so the judge can assess soundness? You asked what happened to the jog….covid. Covid is what happened to the jog, so now we have mandatory trot circles on loose reins. And going from walk to canter? Derbies, handies, equitation … all appropriate to go in, strike a bold canter and go after your course. Has nothing, and I mean nothing to do with avoiding the trot for nefarious reasons.

As far as longing, calming pastes, prepping … yes, it’s common in hunters and there is lots of talk about encouraging judges to stop rewarding the dull, slow rounds. But to say that hunters are the worst offenders in all of USEF is … ridiculous. If you’re so disgusted with the hunters, then please, enjoy your chosen discipline and stop bashing one that you are not involved in or fully informed of.

[NotOK]

There must be a work around. We all have releases or sign releases that we won’t sue ie. at barns or with trainers. Most people respect these. There could be a standard USEF release that you can not seek a legal remedy against a judge or horse show vet that eliminates your horse for lameness. If you choose to sue anyway that could result in a lifetime ban from all and any USEF competitions. This should be an adequate deterrent for most competitors. In addition, USEF could provide for any judge who may be sued by covering all their legal fees, providing legal counsel etc.

[NotOK]

What good is a trot circle if judges pretty much never eliminate anyone? There are a lot of lame hunters out there and the owner, rider and trainers are not in fear of being eliminated. So what is this mandatory trot circle really for? Moreover, I have seen plenty of lame horses pin pretty well in under saddle classes. And I know that it is “standard practice” in many barns to do a lot more than lunging and calming pastes. If you are claiming something else, perhaps you don’t know hunters.

[NotOK]

What happens when stewards “talk to someone”?

[NotOK]

Yeah, so easy fix. The classes could have a schedule and a rider order. The lameness vets and their assistants would be additional horse show staff whose sole job is to ensure that people are not showing lame horses The world would not cater to the riders and trainers as much but more to the horses. Imagine that.
I am hearing a ton of reasons why HJ shows can’t change and make it better for horse welfare. The truth is the people who do it, most of them don’t want a change. Realistically, if there were stricter rules on drugging like the FEI and true oversight to prohibit people from showing lame horses, some trainers would lose a lot of business, some people would have nothing to ride and who wants that?

[skydy]

@NotOK

Yeah, so easy fix. The classes could have a schedule and a rider order. The lameness vets and their assistants would be additional horse show staff whose sole job is to ensure that people are not showing lame horses The world would not cater to the riders and trainers as much but more to the horses. Imagine that.
I am hearing a ton of reasons why HJ shows can’t change and make it better for horse welfare. The truth is the people who do it, most of them don’t want a change. Realistically, if there were stricter rules on drugging like the FEI and true oversight to prohibit people from showing lame horses, some trainers would lose a lot of business, some people would have nothing to ride and who wants that?

I’m guessing that you have the best of intentions. I understand your concerns, I really do. However, the solutions that you propose have to be realistic and they are not. If you want all of horse sport, everywhere, to be conducted under FEI rules, that is not realistic , not in any country, anywhere in the world.

If complete FEI control of all horse shows were to happen, those in horse sport, who would actually push for that idea (never heard of this suggestion from anyone but you) will have done more to kill horse sport at the lower level than any of the “outside” anti- horsesport people. Only the 1% could compete, the cost to enter would exclude all (except the wealthy exhibitors that you are complaining about.)

If only it was such an easy fix as you imagine.

[Willesdon]

To summarize, lame horses run in competitions because Judges (who are supposed to have sufficient knowledge to judge) and Stewards fear legal challenge by owners and trainers - and therefore it will always happen. Regardless of discipline.

Isn’t it time for the USEF to change a culture of fearful non-compliance into something a little more horse friendly? It has to come down from the top if the grassroots see lameness and drug use as “normal”.

There is a thread running at present where an owner at a high-end barn is ‘expected’ to do 24 shows a year. Poor bloody horse.

[Amy3996]

@NotOK

Yeah, so easy fix. The classes could have a schedule and a rider order. The lameness vets and their assistants would be additional horse show staff whose sole job is to ensure that people are not showing lame horses The world would not cater to the riders and trainers as much but more to the horses. Imagine that.

I don’t know how it is for other folks around the country, but I know more than one vet in my local area who has simply stopped offering PPEs. They don’t want to incur the liability from the buyer should the horse go lame after the sale, or from the seller should they advise someone that the horse might not be suitable based on the exam findings.

Your solution is simple in theory, but I think you’d be very, very hard pressed to find vets willing to put their reputation on the line by signing up to evaluate horses’ soundness to compete on such a large scale. Even if there was a way to provide them immunity from legal repercussions, these vets would still need to do business outside of this task.

I’m not saying it’s not worth it for the sake of improving horse welfare. Realistically, though, I think most reasonable vets would look at this proposal as a one-way ticket to a massive client loss.

[Bending_Line]

I do generally agree with the proposition that there are a lot of 2’6" hunters getting the holy heck pounded out of them as the more local barns try to emulate the business model of the big A show barns. I worry that because the jumps are a little lower, the trainers and riders think it’s OK to jump umpteen jumps a week, and do show after show. Lease, lease, lease, show, show, show–a lot of pounding in the name of an oversized ribbon at a year end banquet. And because a lot of the youngish current trainers grew up in this model, they think it’s normal/appropriate/professional to operate this way. The difference in soundness at age 20 for a horse that had to do this versus a horse that was more humanely managed can be shocking.

[supershorty628]

@NotOK

Yeah, so easy fix. The classes could have a schedule and a rider order.

It’s NOT an easy fix. The logistics of that, with the business model as it currently is, are a nightmare. This isn’t dressage where you’re committed to a class ahead of time so they can make a ride order and stick to it - for the vast majority of competitors at H/J shows, they can add same day. The only classes that don’t have that flexibility are the bigger money classes with a set order. It’s not as simple as saying “well, change the business model” - it’s easy to say that, it’s much harder to enact a sweeping cultural paradigm shift. Converting everything to an FEI-style level of oversight is just not realistic, sorry.

What might be more realistic is establishing a national baseline number of shows to count for points, with any additional shows attended after that not counting. Even that, though, gets tricky because what if someone is trying to qualify for Indoors or something, goes to their last show, squeaks in off the waitlist, and then is champion at Harrisburg but now the points don’t count? etc.

I don’t think the powers that be much care about the issue, tbqh, they care about making USHJA money. But I also don’t really think there are scores and scores of grossly lame horses at every show (and I say this having posted previously griping about lameness I watched on live streams, lol) nor that OP is the One True Lameness Spotter. A realistic solution is going to be a lot more incremental than a Big Radical Change.

(and before OP goes after me, I have plenty of experience in the hunter world and on the jumper side, managed a horse at the GP level for the better part of a decade who was still showing at that level when she was 20, so I’m no wet-behind-the-ears naive turnip )

[NotOK]

I am only talking about USEF shows. Those are the ones I compete in, and I don’t like being part of an organization that I feel is so complicit in horse abuse. Honestly, USEF shows already exclude a ton of people. Some shows and some barns more than others. I am also not asking for the shows to all be FEI shows, but just to have way higher horse welfare standards by having way less tolerance for drugs and way mare oversight for soundness by vets and more power and support in the horse welfare area for judges. We didn’t used to spend any money on SafeSport but the amount of money and time spent on it today is huge. This makes me so angry every year when I have to renew my training as I compare the training requirements and emphasis on SafeSport to the lack of training and emphasis on things to protect horses. It is is not that I don’t think people should be protected from wrongdoing, it is just that I am confident that of all the horse rider combinations that fall under the USEF umbrella there are exponentially more horses being abused than riders.

[NotOK]

There may have to be official USEF vets who are on staff (like in house counsel) and do this as their only gig. Or alternately, USEF could have a “lameness specialist” training program like a judge’s training program. Those who navigate all the steps can graduate to be “lameness specialists” who are then hired to make the determination of fitness to show for horses at USEF shows. I know all of this would cost a lot of money. Many would complain of the added cost. Some trainers and riders who see nothing wrong with riding lame horse could splinter off and make a different association. However, USEF shows would be elevated and horse welfare would way improve at the top. I think the horses are worth it.

[NotOK]

Your post made me laugh. I don’t think I am the one true lameness spotter just that those telling there are not lame horses competing or that judge’s eliminate lame horses or there are not issues with drugging horses are clueless or lying. Until horses start talking there is just way too much room for not seeing their pain. Also, I know there are plenty of sound horses competing and plenty of amazingly nice horses competing. Properly managed and with a little luck a horse can be going strong in its 20s. There are classes where most maybe even all on some day would pass a vet screening as appropriate to compete. Then, there are classes, especially in the low hunter and jumper rings, where very often there are more lame horses than sound. I will stand by this statement. I have watched enough of these classes to make this bold statement. There are also trainers who spend most of their day at these rings and are what I would call the “worst offenders”. To solve this issue I think big changes would have to be made as in there would have to be a schedule and people could not add classes the day of the show. I also think there should be a limit on just how often a horse can show because showing a horse as much as some programs do is also in my opinion very contrary to horse welfare.

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

@NotOK

We didn’t used to spend any money on SafeSport but the amount of money and time spent on it today is huge. This makes me so angry every year when I have to renew my training as I compare the training requirements and emphasis on SafeSport to the lack of training and emphasis on things to protect horses. It is is not that I don’t think people should be protected from wrongdoing, it is just that I am confident that of all the horse rider combinations that fall under the USEF umbrella there are exponentially more horses being abused than riders.

Why are you angry when (if you look at the Rich Fellers thread) there is substantial evidence that young people were being sexually abused in a criminal fashion? That’s not even taking into account non-criminal but problematic stuff when people are in vulnerable positions with coaches (which is very common in the equestrian world).

For those who show h/j–how feasible would it be to limit the number of classes per day, per horse, and number of classes per show weekend, as well as the number of shows per horse used to qualify for various awards/prestige classes? I realize people would still get upset about this, but it would be a quantifiable way to reduce wear and tear without having a subjective element to it.

[NotOK]

Yep. I was at a barn with a HJ trainer like this. Many of the horses were older “step down” not sound types. They would jump them almost every time they rode them. It was hard to watch.