I’m not sure the general public knows the difference between amateur and beginner level rider.
3 Likes
Thanks for the replies everyone, this range of opinions is exactly what I wanted.
I’m glad to hear that no-one’s expectations are super high for his ridden education. It seems like my idea of where I’d want a horse of that age are pretty much in line with everyone else’s.
Also @Red Barn makes a good point - his future owner may well prefer to futher his education themselves (which is logical for someone buying a green horse).
And don’t worry everyone, just because he’ll be marketed to the ammy crowd doesn’t mean I’ll be putting ‘ammy friendly’ in the add 
And he won’t be sold to a beginner.
I bought a 4 YO a couple of years ago, although a little bit different situation since I was looking for a competition horse. He had been correctly started in basic dressage, and had been off the farm a few times. I was the second person to ever ride him! They had not really jumped him yet, except for trotting a couple of cross rails. Which was good for me, since if they had they probably would have doubled his price, since he jumps like this (my trainer riding):
[ATTACH=JSON]{“data-align”:“none”,“data-size”:“medium”,“data-attachmentid”:10118419}[/ATTACH]
3 Likes
Not all amateurs are beginners or otherwise incapable of dealing with a green or otherwise imperfect horse. Some may actually seek out such a horse because they are looking for a project or a price break (since a four year old green anything is likely to be less expensive than a seven year old “finished” horse of similar type/breeding).
To me, a horse aimed at the amateur market (as opposed to the recreational/trail market or the professional market) is a horse that is “nice,” isn’t going to get anybody laughed out of the arena, but is not going to interest anybody that’s seriously gunning for competitive success at a high level, or looking to take it on for a few weeks or months and be able to put enough training or show success on it to sell it for a profit.
Speaking for myself as an amateur who was specifically “hunting” (and still window-shop) in the Extreme Mustang Makeover, It was nice to see horses that had been out to some show/clinic venues beyond the big event and kept their composure, but I didn’t care all that much what kind of show it was or if they competed in any way or won anything, just wanted to see that they weren’t going to flip their lid if they left the backyard the trainer was using, and were around a bunch of people and horses they didn’t know. If that was accomplished at a 4-H showmanship class, fine. Team penning outing, dandy. Schooling dressage show, it’s all good. Nice to see horses that had been on trail rides and gone in water. Nice to see horses that had clearly actually RIDDEN in trailers on at least a somewhat regular basis, not just to taught to get on and get off the same stationary trailer parked in the same place parked at home. W/T/C, steer and stop quietly, without it looking like the rider has to really work for it or that the horse is arguing/confused. Didn’t care what tack they were using but wasn’t wild about the ones that really went all-out for a sliding stop and super-slow jog sort of thing. Couldn’t care less if they’d jumped anything or done anything like formal dressage training. Showing that they’re OK with other people was great, and one of my few qualms about the horse I bid on; as far as I could tell the trainer that competed him was the only one who worked with him and mustangs are sometimes one-person sorts of horses–it was fine, though, he loves and respects everybody. Ground manners, ground manners, ground manners. Basic desensitization and overall tolerance so I knew I didn’t have to worry about the Dreaded Blowing Plastic Bag.
4 Likes
For me (an amateur who buys young horses and brings them along myself) a 4yo who only has 30 days under saddle is behind. I’m not saying that they need to be started at 2 but my experience has been if you don’t get them started at 3 they take longer and are harder to instill the idea of a “job” in. At four they are learning how strong they are and here are usually some “discussions” that happen. The ones that were lightly but consistently ridden at 3 tend to be over the idea that someone is going to ride them. To offset that, I would expect a 4yo who has only just started undersaddle to have done a LOT of things - gone to a show, longe or ground drive, have gone on lots of field trips, etc.
it also really depends on the horse. My current 3yo had 30 days at 2 and has had 45 days this spring and he’s ready to have a job. I’m sure others are not like that and at 30 days they are still barely steering.
In general I won’t take a horse back from the trainer until the horse walks, trots, canters, picks up the correct lead, and lunges confidently. I can do the rest from there
1 Like
Amateur = nonprofessional over the age of 18
There is no “to me” in the definition of amateur. There is no level of competency in the definition of amateur.
1 Like
I’ve broke hundreds of horses, most of them race horses, and hands down the easiest ones to deal with were the ones who went to sales as youngsters. Even though they were not broke, just going to the sale and having that experience moved them up mentally and they were better able to handle the training process. So I agree that doing something with them at a young age is very beneficial mentally. It doesn’t need to be strenuous, it’s just a good education for them, as you pointed out, for when they are big enough to get out of control real fast.
1 Like
Exactly–so why did you say “An amateur horse handles stress and challenges without doing anything that will endanger an amateur rider.” That strongly implies that an amateur, by default, is not particularly competent in handling horses in general or green horses in particular. You are expressing what an amateur horse is “to me,” just as I was. A lot of the trainers in the EMM are amateurs, and a lot of them can handle more in the way of a horse learning to adapt to stress and challenges than many professionals that have only ever worked with stock that has been handled since birth.
2 Likes
It doesn’t strongly imply anything other than “amateur,” meaning not a professional. If a horse doesn’t need a pro ride, it’s an amateur horse. WRT the beginner-advanced spectrum begs a conversation with the seller.
In my corner of the world, amateur generally translates to someone with a full time job who boards their horse and cannot get out every day. An amateur friendly horse is one that does not need ridden 6 days a week to be reasonable. It is also one that will do reasonable in a show without melting down. This is not to say a horse may not have a bit of a buck or bolt, but that it is not constant, not exhasperated by time off, and not dangerous (trying to kill self or rider). All that being said, some amateurs do have time to ride 6 days a week and some are previous pros so their skill set is far above the average amateur.
Here, green is different than pro ride. Green just means untrained while pro ride means it needs a particular ride - either it will buck you off if you don’t ride correct, or will refuse every jump, or take off with you, etc. My trainer’s old mare was more of a pro ride because it WILL take off on cross country - and did take off with a student at a BN schooling event and the student had to be rescued by my trainer. Luckily the mare (20 at the time and stepped down from 1* level), came to my trainer when called, otherwise they may still be galloping around the course to this day.
My trainer, as one aspect of her business, finds new careers for TBs off the track. Most are 3-4 and what people want most is a reasonable walk/trot/canter, they like a horse that pops over a crossrail or two. It is a plus that the horse can jump a small vertical, especially with filler. They like to know the horse hacked around outside the property and if the horse went to a cross country schooling or to a schooling show that is also ideal - less sought after this time of the year than the end of the summer as weather permits more of that.
There are some pros that take the horses for resale and they don’t even look for the above per se - they show up with a trailer and lunge the horse to see it’s movement/temperment and it’s either a yea or nay.
3 Likes
Yes, exactly. The ones I have had started at 2 and ridden lightly their 3yo year in accordance with what they’re physically ready for are so, so, so much easier than the ones that people “brought along slowly.”
my 3yo doesn’t do anything hard - I tackled him up and walked him for 5 minutes today - but he already has the idea that someone interrupts his day to make him do something. This is the key I think in resetting their brains.
Ive found them much more difficult to start under saddle if you wait that extra year to chuck the leg over and then expect them to have 20 good rides and be sold. There’s exceptions of course but I have had a lot more 4 and 5yo drama with ones that were started later versus the ones that were ridden as 3yos.
1 Like
Sorry…have to say it…I brought it along slowly= I’m scared of it in ad speak. IME. After driving all over creation to look at such offerings, I’d be scared of it too.
2 Likes
Seriously - it’s a horse, not a pig roast!
There’s a thread over in dressage about the difference between a pro and ammie rider where we all agreed that there is something extra a good pro brings from skill, talent, and experience, that very few ammies no matter how good really have. It’s the ability to get a better or even best performance out of almost every horse.
Somewhere in this thread we are on now, I think someone made a distinction between ammie and recreational trail rider. That surprised me, but then I thought: ah, this is ammie as short hand for amateur competitor.
Amateur competitor does not imply a beginner rider, indeed the opposite. Even to compete successfully in the two foot six hunters or jumpers or first or second level dressage requires very competent riding skills. And amatuers go much higher and farther than that.
But at some point a pretty good pro will usually have the edge over even a very good amateur. And that edge will be getting a better performance out of a horse or being able to ride a hot or difficult horse with athletic potential.
So it depends on the context. If you say AA in the hunter jumper world, adult amateur, you are talking about people who are good riders, maybe just lacking the versatility or drive or nerve or saddle time of a pro. And some top amateurs may in fact surpass some pros in ability. And it’s also true that a retired pro can reclaim amateur status, and that some ammies might be harboring dreams of becoming trainers and coaches after they take early retirement, so it’s not a distinct line.
There are also very small time pros for Instance teaching beginner lessons who may not have that many problem solving skills for more advanced levels.
Your horse sounds like the type my unambitious ammy riders typically buy. We want the horse to be able to walk/trot/canter so they know they like the horse’s gaits, and they want to be able to trot a pole or log, and be able to see the horse free jump or lunge jump. The last one we bought allowed us to do a very short trial on my property so we knew he was safe off property (they didn’t have much of a set up to try him).
Showing would add value IF the horse does ok, or there is video showing good behaviour. Just being ridden off property is a nice bonus, IF there is video evidence.
Mostly they just want the horse to stand while they tack up, mount and dismount, be easy to tack up, and have pleasant gaits.
1 Like
Seeing as the horse will be priced in the low four figures, I’d expect some good basics. Competent flawork, popped over a few small jumps, hacked out, and possibly been off the property a few times. Good ground manners installed, as well as clipping, bathing, and loading. Just showing that he’s suitable to be a good all-around type.
I haven’t been on this forum for ages, but I thought I would post an update on my project horse for those who are interested. Long story short - he sold, to a lovely home, and I got the money I wanted. It was an excellent result!
Not that the process didn’t give me a few ulcers! He’s pretty and attracted a bit of interest, but I had to weed out a fair few people who hadn’t thought about what training a green horse actually entails. I also got people who seemed to expect an awful lot from a green baby (mainly in terms of head carriage).
I ended up not being able to ride him on an outing (although he’d been off property a few times before I broke him in and was fine) and I was focused mainly on ensuring that he was confident and happy in his work. I could ride him bareback or saddled, bitted or bitless, on trails, in the arena, by himself of with company etc etc… I popped him over a few tiny jumps and worked on getting him forward to the leg, soft in the mouth and relaxed in the back.
All in all about half a dozen people rode him (including a friend as a test dummy). I was honestly blown away by how well he behaved with the children in particular - I knew he was quiet but he was especially sweet and forgiving with them. I think he likes kids more than adults actually.
He ended up going to a a horsey family for their young, experienced daughter who wanted to bring along a greenie as her next allrounder. She LOVED him immediately and he was very happy with her. She’s nice light rider but also gun-ho enough to say ‘come on, let’s do this’ if he had a baby hesitation moment. She’s been sending me updates and he’s doing fantastically with her, they even went to a local show & got a couple of ribbons.
It was a great experience for me and I’m very happy with how it turned out. I don’t regret doing it however I’m not sure I’d do it again as it took a lot of time away from my other horses, and the selling process made me very anxious because I was so worried that he wouldn’t find a good home where he’d be loved. Plus I know that I was lucky in many ways; so many things could have gone wrong which didn’t. But overall definitely a positive experience for both me and the horse.
6 Likes
I agree that the horse needs the basics - w-t-c, stop/halt, go and turning. It needs to know how to stand tied, stand in cross ties, be bathed, load and unload and haul. It also needs lots of exposure - go to other places and handle itself well, see flapping tarps and not react, be sensible in strange surroundings, trail ride, trail ride, trail ride - alone, in groups, in the front and in the back. To be fair to the horse and to your training, the horse needs to be ridden by others and the prospective buyer needs to be shown and told what ‘works’ for the horse in terms of maintaining his/her cool. No horse is completely dead quiet though I find that is what most buyer’s want and expect. I have had to ‘educate’ buyers on what is reasonable to expect and what tools to use if things start to go south in order to prevent a total melt down - ie, I teach them how to be THAT horse’s leader.
1 Like
Why are you waiting so long to start him? You are missing out on the crucial growth phase of a horse where training is beneficial for strengthening.
