Sensative, Reactive and Hard to Correct

[kmv5711]

I don’t know how else to say this other than to start from the beginning and write a novel…

In May of 2016 I purchased a QH gelding, his name is Wrigley. Wrigley is 8 years old but more like a 4 year old between the ears. As far as I know (this could all be false because I’m getting this info second hand) he was broke for WP as a 2 year old, got injured at age 3 and was put out to pasture to heal and “grow up”. At 5 he was pulled out of the field to start being trained again but the person who had him was intimidated. So, again he sat for another year. At 6 he was pulled out again and started trail riding and contesting (mainly barrels). For a year he trail rode and ran barrels but in January of 2016 he dumped his owner at the first barrel and the owner decided to sell him. Right before I purchased Wrigley, someone had been working with him on some western and ranch riding…when I went to see him, she had him going in a tom thumb-style bit which he didn’t look totally displeased with, although I noticed that he was gritting his teeth, A LOT. Everything I do with him now is done is a plain O-ring snaffle.

My goal with this guy is to turn him in to a confident trail rider and show him at some local ranch and fun shows. He has a wonderful jog and extended trot. He’s built to bring his hocks way up under him so I KNOW he can lope slowly and controlled, although we haven’t quite harnessed that yet. He’s also built like a powerhouse with a big hip. He has quite a bit of endurance and stamina as well. Wrigley is SMART…almost too smart. He knows how to “grill my cheese”, but he also enjoys being a good boy. At first he and I didn’t speak the same language at all. It’s taken a very long time to bond with him and control my emotions when I’m riding him…which leads me to the whole point of this post.

Wrigley is a sensitive guy. He wants to be good because he hates when you’re mad. He gets VERY reactive if he thinks you are mad at him. He starts gritting his teeth, throwing his head, balling up his neck, he gets prance-y and very, very hot headed. This makes it hard to correct him. The first time to go to correct him with something he might be ok with it, but the second time he immediately over-reacts and starts doing his “reactive dance”. We’ve been working on contact and he’s gotten better but he still HATES when you are in his mouth too much. A lot of this has been happening lately as we work on the lope. If I leave him alone and let him do his thing then he goes mach-speed which does neither of us favors. If I try half-halting he gets upset. I try to hold him together with my seat and legs, but I can only do that for so long before I need some rein aid.

Wrigley is even over-reactive to my seat and leg cues at times. For example, if I lightly bump him with my inside leg at the walk to move him over to the rail he will turn his whole body to the rail and stop. If I bump him with my inside leg and also hold the inside rein still with some light contact to keep him from completely turning, he grits hit teeth.

I feel stuck between a rock and a hard place. I can’t tell if he’s playing me or not. I can’t correct him too much without him getting hot and upset. I’m not sure what to do here. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. TIA

[tinah]

Sounds like you need to learn to quiet your seat. If a bump with a leg is too much, squeeze with your inside thigh and keep your leg off unless you want a bigger move.

do you have a trainer? They can help you find a horse to whom you are better suited, or help you be the rider this horse needs.

[cloudy18]

It could be any number of things, or likely a combination of things, going on. I second getting a decent trainer involved. This horse has had an iffy past. Without seeing how you ride and how he reacts, in person, it’s hard to say what needs to be done.

I do suggest a vet exam to rule out any physical issues, get teeth checked, etc. I can say that I think you should not even be worried about the lope right now. Back up, do groundwork, and when you do ride, walk and trot only for awhile. Get that down first.

What kind of snaffle, a single joint? He might prefer something with a double joint. What specific sorts of corrections are you making when he gets upset? I also agree to try quieting your requests. You can always ask more loudly a second time. Does he flex laterally? Will he soften to the bit at a standstill? A walk? Or does he grit his teeth every time you take up contact? It’s hard to say if he’s in need of more basic training, if he’s got your number, if he hates the bit, your hands, etc.

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[beau159]

@kmv5711

Wrigley is 8 years old but more like a 4 year old between the ears. As far as I know (this could all be false because I’m getting this info second hand) he was broke for WP as a 2 year old, got injured at age 3 and was put out to pasture to heal and “grow up”.

Well first things first. I’m guessing you don’t know what the injury was. I would probably start with a basic lameness exam to see if there is anything with his old injury that could still be bothering him.

@kmv5711

I noticed that he was gritting his teeth, A LOT.

Also, have you had his teeth checked?

@kmv5711

He starts gritting his teeth, throwing his head, balling up his neck, he gets prance-y and very, very hot headed.

And possibly a chiro check?

I’m probably more anal than most with making sure my horses are in tip-top shape, but I personally feel it’s only fair to the horse.

@kmv5711

If I try half-halting he gets upset.

Wrigley is even over-reactive to my seat and leg cues at times.

I can’t correct him too much without him getting hot and upset.

It sounds like you are just giving his stronger cues than he needs. There are hotter-type horses out there that do get very reactive like this the more you pick on them. So make sure your cues are very light. That may be all he needs.

I also prefer to do lots of serpentines or similar moves rather than half-halts with a horse like this. That way, you only have to give them one direct rein at a time, and you stay off their mouth more. Some horses are much happier that way and you can still regulate their speed.

If you want to make him a solid trail horse, put on the miles. Sometimes it takes lots of wet saddle blankets before they calm down. It took over a year before I fixed a lot of my Red’s issues. He sounds very similar to your guy.

[Showbizz]

He was not started well, and his previous owner’s expectations were too high, too fast. You are now in repair mode, and it’s not always worth the time and effort to undo bad training.

The fact that you say he “HATES having you in his mouth” and is overreactive to leg tells me he does not accept leg or hand. That doesn’t give you much to work with.

I have turned these types around. You have to take all aspirations of making him into “XYZ” null and void until he learns relaxation. And he won’t learn relaxation until he learns to accept the aids (hand and leg being two major ones).

Find someone who has dealt with these types (I come from a strong Arabian background) and have them guide you through the process. Good luck!

[kmv5711]

@beau159

Well first things first. I’m guessing you don’t know what the injury was. I would probably start with a basic lameness exam to see if there is anything with his old injury that could still be bothering him.

Unfortunately, I’m not 100% sure of what the injury was. I was able to get in touch with one of his old owners and he said it was an ankle injury and he had xrays showing that it was healed. Again, I take that with a grain of salt. I did have Wrigley fully vetted before I purchased him and he checked out great. Hasn’t taken a lame step since I’ve had him but I definitely wouldn’t rule this possibility out.

@beau159

Also, have you had his teeth checked?

Yes. Right after his vet exam, I had his teeth done in hopes of correcting the gritting. No luck. Teeth are good, no problems eating. Although he is due for another check up.

@beau159

And possibly a chiro check?

He has been chiro’ed about every 3 months since I’ve had him. If he hasn’t actually needed an adjustment, then he’s at least been checked.

@beau159

It sounds like you are just giving his stronger cues than he needs. There are hotter-type horses out there that do get very reactive like this the more you pick on them. So make sure your cues are very light. That may be all he needs.

I would tend to agree with this. The gelding I had before Wrigley (I lost him to colic), was completely different in every way. So I had to basically re-learn how to ride Wrigley. I don’t have an official trainer, but my best friend has been riding for 30+ years and she helps me when she can. Money is an issue when it comes to training. I do try and take lessons when I can because I know that the problem isn’t just Wrigley. I’m very open to being critiqued in hopes of making this work.

@beau159

If you want to make him a solid trail horse, put on the miles. Sometimes it takes lots of wet saddle blankets before they calm down. It took over a year before I fixed a lot of my Red’s issues. He sounds very similar to your guy.

I agree! We are working on this. I’ve had him out for at least one trail ride every week for the past month and he is definitely getting better. He was so good on this last ride we took. I was praising the crap out of him and he was so pleased with himself. I would love to have that feeling more often!

Is your “Red” a sorrel? Wrigley is a sorrel and is as red as a copper penny with 2 swirls…one on each side of his mane at the very top of his head. Not sure if you’re in to reading swirls or markings. His great grandfather was also Hotrodders Jet Set.

Thank you for your feed back! I appreciate it and will definitely consider all of it!

[beau159]

@kmv5711

We are working on this. I’ve had him out for at least one trail ride every week for the past month and he is definitely getting better.

Heck, I’d take him out on the trails every day, 6+ miles. Literal wet saddle blankets. :yes:

For over the first year I had Red, I didn’t even have an arena where we boarded. We just rode on the trails. Minimum 4 miles just about every day. He will still have his “moments” here and there, but overall he is a very very solid trail horse for riding alongside scary things (dirt bikes, regular bikes, cars, trucks, birds flying up, deer jumping up, etc etc). But it took us a long time and lots of miles to get there.

@kmv5711

Is your “Red” a sorrel?

He’s a red roan. Although not a “real” red roan b/c he doesn’t have black points but that’s what he is registered as.

[findeight]

That breedung and that fact he was started at 2 then washed out at 3 allegedly due to injury tells me he never got a solid introduction to basics, might have been rushed aiming at the Futurities and could have been burned out/brain fried. There’s a huge rush to get into those very lucrative 2 year old Futurities, many fall victim mentally and physically along the way. Particularly in tne hands of those who dont carefully select just the right, special minded colt then try to jam the square peg into the round hole without ruining the horse. There’s a whole lot of burned out Futurity failures out there…although Barrel Racing is a very unique way to try to get a job for a WP bred and built horse . Suspect they thought he was " too hot" for anything else as opposed to realizing he’s got less training then most 4 year olds…Yeah, get on and run 'em, yeah, that’ll work. Not.

Really sounds like he just doesn’t know and then gets corrected for doing it wrong because he doesn’t know. That’s not sensitive, he’s trying to tell you he diesnt know. You would benefit by starting all over and getting some guidence from somebody experienced with horses in similar straits.

On the injury side, did you get x rays on your PPE? Horses cost a lot to keep, especially standing around in fields for years. Don’t believe the backstory here, there’s more to why he stood around for years. Many WP and Halter bred QHs have problems with size and shape of their front hooves sometimes complicated by farriers trimming and setting shoes that are too small to enhance the bulky horse on tiny feet look. Many QHs are prone to develop conformation related, farrier aggravated navicular issues that can make the horse quite uncomfortable. And they don’t limp since both feet hurt. It is very common cause for young horses dropping out of training and older horses developing training problems or erratic behavior under saddle. There’s no " cure" but it can be managed to keep the horse comfortable and avoid further damage.

Any chance you can link to a picture of him on a photo sharing site?

[findeight]

Old x rays are close to worthless, they wouldn’t show current conditions inside the hoof for navicular. Might not even reveal what original injury was, won’t show anything if that was a soft tissue injury like a DDFT. Don’t apologize for not having complete information, you weren’t given any and the last owner didn’t get the whole story either. It happens. Most of the time you buy one you won’t know everything, either seller doesn’t know or maybe somebody skipped some details or lied several owners back.

He doesnt have the small feet but I don’t care for the way he’s trimmed/shod. You could post this link over on the Horse Care forum titled " what do you think of his feet/shoeing" those far more expert then I are never shy in sharing their thoughts. Won’t solve all your problems but a comfortable horse is a happier horse.

I just get the impression his toes are too long, might be a bit off from the pastern angle, might be a little dish there on the left, and there’s too much heel…maybe he’s just gone too long between trims and resets, maybe the trim is off to start with. Posting over on Horse Care doesn’t cost anything but a few minutes of your time.

BTW, this is a pretty attractive horse showing some real quality. He’s a little…ahem…pudgy…that’s easier to fix then the other extreme and getting him fixed up so he can work regularly, going faster then a walk, slow jog, is going to help tighten up the muscle tone. IME horses that are really “hot” or chronically nervous don’t carry this kind of weight or project this demeanor. Overall, I’d guess he’s pretty easy on himself. Which is the kind you want and can work with. And worth that work.

Keep digging for ideas, you can get him back on track. Keep an open mind and look for help where you can find it.

[beau159]

@kmv5711

To me, I feel like it’s not beneficial to ride “out of frame” so most of the time this is a battle that I choose to fight…I could be totally wrong.

Agree that he may not know what you are asking but also wanted to comment that he may not be physically able … yet. When done correctly it is VERY hard to travel in frame 100% of the time. Based on your pictures of him (physical fitness), he may simply be unable to physically travel in frame all the time right now.

So I would certainly cut him some slack. I would not expect him to travel in frame all the time right now. Or else keep your sessions quite short if you do want him in frame the whole time before he fatigues.

Very pretty horse, btw.

[bugsynskeeter]

What’s his breeding? Any reason you can’t go back to a regular snaffle?

[beau159]

@bugsynskeeter

What’s his breeding? Any reason you can’t go back to a regular snaffle?

OP is using a regular snaffle … not the picture she posted.

[bugsynskeeter]

@beau159

OP is using a regular snaffle … not the picture she posted.

Missed that…sorry.

[findeight]

Believe OP said he was a Hot Rodders Jet Set upthread? Couple of generations back but combined with the fact he was started as aFuturity colt, he’s mostly Pleasure bred. OP, who are his parents and grandparents on his papers? Never know somebody might be familiar with them, horse world is smaller then you think…

His breeder, the owner of the mare at the time of foaling should be on there too, some stallion owners like to know where their studs offspring end up too. AQHA records can help you locate them as well as see if he has any points anywhere, if you are a member. If not, some on here are and are willing to do a little research for fellow Cothers with nice horses who deserve a break through no fault of their own…

[cloudy18]

Just some additional thoughts…try to stay off of his face and see what happens. He’s possibly not getting the whole contact thing, or resents it bc he was rushed. And the shank bit you posted is not meant to be ridden with contact, really, so I can understand why he didn’t care for that. Did you try riding him in that on a loose rein? You could try it again, on a loose rein, and really try to quietly use seat, leg and neck rein. Don’t worry about his frame.

Even with the snaffle, let go of the idea of keeping him in a frame. He’s not ready, mentally or physically or both. He might need some time to unwind and realize life isn’t all about endless drilling. And with WP and barrel training, I’m not sure he would have gotten the training with the contact you are trying to do. So take it slowly, and keep it fun for him. If he’s good on the trail, do that. You can do plenty of training on the trail in little increments and he might be happier than doing it in an arena. Loping up hills to start out with is easier, but don’t get carried away with loping right away.

I have a mare who also does not like me in her face. I quit lessons temporarily because it wasn’t fair to her to have this pushed on her. Her lope is still too fast, but it’s improving, and I don’t work on it very often. We will get there.

If his teeth are fine and different bits don’t change the gritting of his teeth, I’d guess that he just has some anxiety about the work you are doing. It hopefully will get better over time, but try to see if you notice a pattern. Is it better while trail riding, or on a loose rein, etc.

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[kmv5711]

@cloudy18

If his teeth are fine and different bits don’t change the gritting of his teeth, I’d guess that he just has some anxiety about the work you are doing. It hopefully will get better over time, but try to see if you notice a pattern. Is it better while trail riding, or on a loose rein, etc.

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He is better about gritting on the trail and on a loose rein…doesn’t do it nearly as much. I can tell when he starts to enjoy himself…his head gets low and his ears flop. It’s a joy to see.

About his breeding: His dad is Radical Revolution and his mom is She’s Got The Godstuf. Grandfathers are Radical Rodder and Zippos Mr Goodbar. He has Zippos Pine Bar on both sides. Paternal great grandfather was Hotrodders Jet Set.

I guess the reason why I was working on contact with him was because I wasn’t getting results by just using my seat and legs…but that’s an area that I can definitely work on with myself! I want to be fair to Wrigley so if that’s something that can help then I’m willing to do it.

Those pics were taken a few months back so he is a little less pudgy now, haha! Thank you for the compliments about his looks. I might be biased but I think he’s pretty cute too. But yes, he’s not “in shape” yet so the point made about him just not being physically able to do what I’m asking is very valid. I guess I hadn’t thought of that because I was focused more on how much “engine” he has rather than his physical fitness.

I love this boy and truly want what’s best for him. So thank you to everyone who has responded to this thread…you have all helped more than you know.

[BeckyS]

I know saying “ulcers” is trendy…

But the teeth gritting and sensitivity to being touched on the sides makes me think ulcers. I successfully treated my gelding using Nexium, which I learned about on this forum (there’s a thread on it somewhere).

Might be worth a shot, certainly can’t hurt at this point!

[beau159]

@BeckyS could be a possiblity, since it sounds like said horse does tend to be more “hot” and sensitive. Agreed - certainly does not hurt to treat them for it, and if they improve, then you know.

[BeckyS]

@beau159

@BeckyS could be a possiblity, since it sounds like said horse does tend to be more “hot” and sensitive. Agreed - certainly does not hurt to treat them for it, and if they improve, then you know.

Exactly what I was thinking. My total cost was something like $40 to treat him, and results were seen in three days.

My horse was great, eating well, but just seemed a little uncomfy in the gut. He would grind his teeth when doing up a girth (STB, first time saddling, not surprising) but it just didn’t go away with training. For being a pretty polite horse, he’d get ornery when attempting to ride.

So I pretty much left him alone for six weeks (aside from some ponying and ground work) and tried starting to ride after the treatment finished. He hasn’t really put a foot wrong, and now loves riding.