This is not defensive, running away is defensive, this is aggression. JL is great to follow, but there are many other good trainers besides. Your mare doing it right with you is the first step, now up the ante, will she do it right with you if you rush? if you make extra noise? don’t move carefully but bounce around a bit? can you ‘accidentally’ drop a bucket beside her feet, accidentally toss a brush/bag/rope at her? brush her with. noisy plastic bag? sweep, spray water, run up to her, trip over her back foot, hang on her tail, use clippers…all the while she may look at you but remains relaxed.
Up the ante some more, take her away from her normal work area, it doesn’t have to be off the farm just a different spot, its surprising how just that change can up the challenge level.
Then take her off farm and do all the above.
When she can do all the above, in a relaxed state, you may find she treats others with more respect.
Some years ago I made the mistake of almost moving in slow motion around a young horse, normal movement almost traumatized her.
So, you play the 7 games with her. That is textbook Parelli.
Please stop wiggling her to back up. That teaches a horse that any movement on the line that can be interpreted as a wiggle means back up. Now imagine your horse is tied up and someone jiggles the rope by accident….
The wiggle-to-back causes untold anxiety in horses. You want a horse to back from a feel, not a movement.
I suspect your training program is the problem. Get away from the Mustached Womanizer and go look at Buck Brannaman or Tik Maynard or Tristian Tucker.
My first thoughts as well. This mare needs a full repro exam. I would not consider euthanasia until she had one.
I’d like to mention something I feel is really important - please do not try to bully this horse into doing what you want. Some horses will match aggression with aggression and can become incredibly dangerous. I don’t believe you are implying that or have done that at all with the progress you’ve made, but I feel it’s an important thing to say. That said, you still have to keep boundaries firm and consistent. I would personally use work and activity to “discipline” this horse. The horse sounds very intelligent. Some of the most intelligent horses I’ve ever met have been WBs. I have two that are so smart that I must be very intentional and careful about training because they will never forget a bad move on my part. Intelligent animals can be challenging.
I also have worked extensively with a horse that was aggressive with unknown handlers. I had to be on my toes at all times and outsmart him at every move. He could sniff out the handler’s incompetence or insecurity a mile away. I had to make things seem like his idea. It was pretty exhausting. Any time I asked for more under saddle, I was met with some resistance and it made riding really challenging. It’s a lot to take on.
I do believe this mare has learned how to intimidate people and that can be such a slippery slope. I would personally start with a repro exam, maybe speak to your vet about regumate, and keep working this horse in a safe way until you have more information - ie. Round pen work, long lining/longe work, desensitization to build confidence, ponying, etc., until. This could all be behavioral or it could have a very specific physiological cause.
Since the mare trusts you and you are making progress, albeit slow, I would do sessions where both you and your trainer work with the horse on the ground. Use the trust the mare has in you to foster trust with your trainer. I think a round pen setting would be great - any aggression is met with sending her out and moving her feet. You have to get very creative with these types. Hopefully she will learn that aggression means more work and that unknown handlers will not tolerate aggression and that other people are safe and trustworthy.
I really appreciate your post and the points you’ve made - I agree with everything that you’ve said. I am very aware of all of the safety concerns that have been brought up in this thread, but agree with you that she deserves a full work-up to see if we can find anything medically going on that might be contributing to some of the behaviors.
You are absolutely correct, this mare is incredibly smart and she’s very perceptive to people’s energy as well. As you said, being firm and consistent is imperative, but it’s a balancing act because she is a horse that I’ve seen match other people’s aggression. I recognize that dominant/defensive/aggressive responses are in no way acceptable, but in working with this mare, I believe I’ve had the most success so far by being mindful of my own energy, taking my time and being intentional. Getting her to work with me and think things are her idea is key.
We’ve been playing around with some of the TRT exercises recently to see if this approach is helpful and I’ll continue working with her on the ground while we wait for her initial bloodwork to come back.
Textbook hormonal issues. I just had one with much less severe, but still aggressive, tendencies have bloodwork done and she came back with levels that indicate an ovarian tumor. The mounting other mares is a red flag. Hopefully that’s your solution!
And please don’t entertain people that say to euthanize this horse.
