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Sensitive Mare - Handling Concerns

Horse Care
#1

Hi all - Last spring I purchased a 3.5 yr old warmblood mare, who my coach found online and we purchased her off a video from a breeder who was downsizing, so her history is relatively unknown. When she arrived, it was clear that she was essentially feral - she had never been blanketed, had her feet done, and she was barely halter broke.

Fast forward a year - myself and this mare have made some great progress. I have handled her daily and she generally tolerates me in her space without any issues. My coach helped me get her going w/t/c under saddle as well.

Despite being handled consistently, she still becomes very defensive whenever anyone, besides myself, comes near her (professionals included and even with firm boundaries reinforced).

For me, she has been improving daily, but this has been a challenging issue to work on as she will kick, bite, rear, threaten to laydown, etc, if anyone else comes close. And I don’t want anyone else getting hurt.

I’ve treated her for ulcers and am I currently waiting for bloodwork to come back to rule out some physical causes (we’re checking her hormones and testing for lyme, as well as Vit E/selenium deficiency).

I’m just wondering if anyone has ever worked with a horse similar to this in the past or has any thoughts? I didn’t want to make this post too long, but am happy to share any additional details that would be helpful.

#2

Has she had any round pen work with someone who knows what they are doing? Not just watched a John Lyons video and spent a night at Holiday Inn.

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#3

Yes - she’s done extensive groundwork with both myself and my coach who has trained many feral horses.

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#4

I was going to say the same thing. This horse may or may not be sensitive (they all are really) but she is clearly still feral. And not really ready for riding either.

Most riding programs skimp on ground work and only do the necessary to get the horse into cross ties, saddle, mounting block.

You need to spend a whole lot more time with her on ground work. With a halter, at liberty, clicker training if you can manage the timing, in hand obstacles. Just everything that got skipped in her baby years

I expect the reason she is “good” for you is that you ask the minimum, and when a farrier or vet needs to constrain her to work on her, she panics.

This is absolutely natural behavior that good breeders resolve when the foal is tiny.

Edited to add, whatever you’ve done as groundwork hasn’t been enough. What have you done? What can she do on the ground? Can she free longe on voice commands? Walk over obstacles? Mirror you leading with no halter? Lead away from barn out of sight of other horses? Can you bathe her, fly spray, hold up her foot for 3 minutes and tap on it? Etc. Can other people do these things with her?

If your trainer knows feral horses, what does your trainer think needs done? Is trainer happy with horse or has trainer given up? Is trainer actually competent?

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#5

First thought is that still feral when you got her at 3.5 years old is a tough starting point, as her behaviors are so ingrained by that age. Good work by you so far!

Second, you say “anyone”, but 
 that might be the problem. ‘Anyone’ is not what she is ready for, perhaps.

I am not up to the challenge you have, so don’t have that experience to relate. However, I got an 8 yo gelding who was not well taught re stable manners, and was very hinky with farriers. I had no problem doing his feet, but the farrier was a hard ‘no’ from him – a bit like your situation. I always had to be there to keep things under control.

Except that when I changed farriers, he got a lot better from the beginnnig. The new farrier was much, much more the temperament needed than was the old farrier. Horse was edgy but far more tolerant and cooperative. I was still there to help manage him, but much less intervention was needed. Although horse didn’t improve much from his initial demeanor.

When I moved and changed farriers again, horse totally calmed down. The third farrier had extensive experience starting young horses and he was the right fit for this horse. Horse was calmer after every session. After 5 or 6 farrier visits, I was no longer needed at all. Horse & farrier had become firm BFF’s.

Anyway 
 wonder if your mare still needs a good bit of consideration from those handling her. She knows your ways, and you know hers. They don’t. That might be the difference.

And yes, there are some colt-starters out there who might be able to resolve this for you.

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#6

Thanks so much, I really appreciate your response. I do understand this is natural behavior and why early, consistent handling is so important. I also agree that clearly more groundwork is needed, which is my only focus at the moment.

On the ground, she knows how to yield her hindquarters and forequarters, she will move laterally down the wall (both away and towards me), she will also yield 180 degrees around me by the arena wall. She backs up easily by me wiggling the line or with me standing next to her and shifting my weight back. She’s been long-lined and ground driven. We’ve played around at liberty a bit and she will stick with me, matching my steps and even mirror me moving laterally (not consistently yet of course, but she’s super smart and it’s been fun to play around with her). She can walk over obstacles (i.e. puddles, tarps). I’ve done some work with getting her used to being touched by a flag and she has zero reaction to that anymore.

She can be lead away from the barn and out of sight of other horses. I didn’t quite get to the point of giving her a full bath last summer, but we worked up to being able to hose her whole body off. I also got her used to fly spray and wearing a fly mask. I can hold each of her feet up for a couple of minutes - she’s got a bit of thrush at the moment, so it takes me a bit to clean each of her feet and apply the treatment.

Other people are not able to do these things with her yet.

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#7

If you have never worked with a horse like this before then you are trying to learn yourself and maybe not doing all the right things. I hope this doesn’t make you all defensive-y, but your qualified coach needs to be the one working with this mare every day, while you watch and learn yourself.

I have absolutely been in this situation with a young mare, and the occasional work with “John Lyons wannabes” and my own learning curve just weren’t cutting it. It took us moving to a barn with a qualified professional who worked with her every single day, and also worked with me to turn the mare into a really nicely behaved horse.

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#8

I think this is the root of the problem. Your mare has learned to trust you but not other people yet.

One of my horses is an older gelding that I adopted as a pasture pet. When I first got him he was difficult with the farrier–pinning his ears, threatening to kick. It took me a while to realize that he was not mean, just worried about what strangers might do to him. I decided to try to make the farrier visits a pleasant time for him. I distracted him by scratching his itchy spots while the farrier worked and offering a treat each time a foot was finished. He quickly learned that he got a treat when he behaved, and now he stands quietly for the farrier without me holding him. The farrier still gives him a treat after every foot, and my horse now likes having his feet trimmed.

I want to be clear that I’m not suggesting you turn yourself into a treat dispensary and create a spoiled horse. If you decide to try this, first teach your horse not to be pushy for treats. I did this by offering the treat only when he turned his head away from me. Also only offer the treat as a special reward for good behavior and don’t use it as a bribe.

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#9

I’d be inclined to find someone that has a multi trainer program all operating under the same system of handling. She needs to have multiple people handle and work with her who can be consistent with expectations and boundaries. Most programs have a lead trainer and maybe an assistant and then a horse is the victim of whatever well intentioned but less equipped barn worker who is handling turnout, feeding, etc. If you can find a really comprehensive program then every day she will get consistent multi person exposure without overwhelming her with inconsistent expectations.

Personally, I can’t fathom riding a horse that can’t be bathed or have her feet handled by a farrier. Do you actually feel safe on her?

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#10

For me, I never ever call this nasty behaviour defensive. It’s 100% aggressive. It is likely fear aggression, but it is aggression and it needs to be stopped because it’s only a matter of time before someone does get hurt.

Like the poster above, I use food rewards, never ever bribes, in a very plentiful and frequent manner for every tiny little good behaviour. I also press treats into the hands of anyone close by and have them dispense for the tiniest good behaviour. It works well. It works especially well if you draw a hard line, stick to it and do not waiver.

Communicate. Communicate. Communicate. Listen and teach the horse that you are listening so she will stop yelling (getting aggressive) because she has come to understand that although you may ask her for unpleasant things sometimes, there are consequences and rewards and she will never truly be harmed by trusting you.

And always, always, always watch this horse. There may always be a tipping point. :confused:

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#11

About 25 years ago, I got a young gelding who was extremely sensitive, although not to the degree of your mare. I bought the John Lyons book “Lyons on Horses” and basically used it as a bible. I spent countless hours playing little games with the horse to build mutual trust and self-confidence. It eventually progressed to free lunging with voice commands only. This was about six months with absolutely no time in the saddle. Once the horse was showing signs of confidence and curiosity, I progressed to riding. I got dumped off frequently in the early days and would go back to ground games for awhile. But eventually he became confident, then bomb proof. I bet she’ll come around, but it will be on her schedule with you setting her up for success and letting her take herself across the finish line. This is clearly a horse who can’t be rushed into anything. That stubborn nature will make a rock solid horse once she’s ready.

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#12

This. In spades.

My other comment is that you may have unfortunately discovered why this mare was essentially unhandled at 3.5 years of age. It should not take a year of (presumably) competent handling to make a horse safe to handle for basic husbandry tasks. Most truly feral Mustangs come around more quickly than that with consistent, quality handling and training.

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#13

Exactly. I follow a few trainers that take on mustangs every year and more than a few horses go from feral to being groomed, trimmed, tied, loaded and lunged in about 30 days. Sure, they’re not being handled by rank beginners but they’re safe to have in the barn.

Horses that have learned to drive humans away with aggressive and fearful behavior are often a tougher nut to crack, but over a year in and only one or two people can usually handle the horse? Something is wrong with the program or seriously wrong with the horse.

OP, this may be a mare that needs consistent quality handling for quite a while - and maybe forever. This is rarely attained at a “regular” boarding barn with who-knows-what staff doing most of the handling, no matter how good the trainer may be. It would be worth investigating a full service training board situation with a good and fair pro, likely a western type that starts colts and problem horses for a living. Picking a GOOD one is key, but daily consistency from everyone in her life is what this mare needs.

Personally, I’m not sure if you(g) can clicker train and supplement your way out of this. At least, this is not the horse to practice with:

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#14

100%. We’ve had a number of feral horses here on property who have come around within a couple of months and as you said are not beginner friendly, but are safe to have in the barn without any issues.

My trainer and her assistant are both well-respected in our horse community and get sent horses from all over the region, often working with “problem horses” that no one else has had success with, and their methods are effective with good results. For whatever reason, this mare seems to be the exception.

My trainer feels that this mare likely learned in her limited experiences with people previously that she could intimate people and make people disappear by escalating into some big/dominant behaviors. However, coming up on a year of consistent, competent handling, with firm boundaries and clear expectations it’s clear something is not right/not working.

I didn’t mention in my initial post, but the mare has also appeared to be in heat quite frequently the last couple months, many days in a standing heat at the fence line, and was caught mounting another mare one day. We didn’t notice anything unusual about her heat cycles last spring, so I’m curious to see what her hormone panel shows and if this could be a factor?

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#15

Regardless of the whys, wherefores, knowledgeable explanations and fact-based theories, I would see this as a profound safety situation for the future. As well as the present. For the world, not just me.

My horse life doesn’t really have much room for continuing problem horses to stay indefinitely, for both financial and time-management reasons. Many horse humans out in the world are in the same circumstance.

If I were the owner, I’d be looking for a nice large pasture with other horses where she could live out her life unbothered. And I’d make sure a vet had her neutered to block ever reproducing.

I am not the owner, and of course there are owners who can continue with this project. But if something happens to such an exceptionally competent owner that takes them out of horse-owning, the mare faces a very uncertain future. That would be on my mind – what happens “if”.

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#16

This horse is not “sensitive” - this horse is aggressive.

The mare “generally tolerates” you in her space
 after a year. OP, while I give you massive kudos for sticking it out, this makes me think of people who try to rehab known aggressive dogs. They change their whole world to try to placate the dog but generally in the end, someone still winds up being hurt. And a horse is 100X bigger than a dog.

If this was my horse, I would be looking at behavioral euthanasia.

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#17

I would euthanize. The hobby is too dangerous to begin with and you’ve spent a year. My rescue mare who came to me terribly traumatized would charge at me in the pasture. She just wanted me to leave. She was terrified in the barn and always trying to leave and sometimes panic and bolt.

It was all fear and 99% of it is gone. Your mare is either in pain or has something else going on.

I remember watching the Wilson Sisters and their "Keeping Up with the Kaimawanas (sp?) show and you can still stream on Horse and Country TV. So they would get in mustangs and some would be
very aggressive and attack - unusually. Turns out they always had something going on. Pain.

And I do highly recommend watching that show. So much to learn - those sisters have a lot of experience. They also made a point of gentling older mustangs to show it could be done and they were nice horses.

I also have a mustang who was gathered at age 6 and he’s such a sweetheart. He even had multiple serious medical issues but was always trying to be good - even when he nipped or otherwise communicated his “no”.

I’m so sorry but no no way do you want a horse with her behaviors. Euthanize before someone gets really hurt.

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#18

Since the topic of euthanasia has come up, I’m back to clarify stuff I purposely left out earlier.

I mentioned consequences and left it at that. If I were in charge of turning this horse around I would 100% make this horse think she was going to probably die each and every time she tried one of the aggressive behaviours on me, on anyone else, and probably if I could merely see her thinking about trying it on for size. Between times, she’d get massive rewards for doing the simplest things. And I’d be damned sure to turn off the “have to make her think she’s going to die so I have to summon my entire life’s anger” and turn back on the “she’s the best horse in the world” instantly. Every time. Every single time.

And after your additional post, OP, I’d also have her checked for repro issues.

The method above works really well IF you can do it, IF you can be 100% committed to it every time anyone is handling the horse, and IF you give more of a flying flip about creating a good citizen horse who will survive and thrive no matter who handles her than you do about what anyone else may think of your methods. Horses cannot bite, kick, strike, rear, or throw themselves to the ground. They simply cannot. Whatever we have to do to convince them of this SURVIVAL fact, we must do or we must accept the responsibility to end their lives so they don’t injure someone or end up going through hell as someone else’s problem.

What would become of your horse (or her handlers) if you broke your leg or died?

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#19

This type of behavior can certainly be hormonal, and can be indicative of an ovarian tumor that secretes testosterone, resulting in stallion-like behavior. It would be odd to see it in a younger horse, but weirder things have happened. I’m glad you’re getting her hormone levels checked; a repro ultrasound may also be useful. Wishing you all of the best luck - it seems like you are very committed and trying to do right by this horse, so I hope it’s something fixable!

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#20

My first thought was also to address hormones before considering the horse to be a lost cause. She may still be tricky to manage, but that might help.

For continuing groundwork, you may want to try something like the TRT method (or at least the principles) for this problem. It sounds like you have gotten some trust and obedience. For 2 people. The horse needs to learn self management and confidence. While you might think an aggressive horse would be confident, not if that is just how they are trying to manage their fear. One horse I had as a 4yo, if you went around him during feeding time, he’d paw and swing his butt around and try to be all puffed up. He was lower in the herd (if not the bottom), and I think that was a leftover foal habit to protect his food. It didn’t take long for him to figure out that I and other people weren’t threatening his meals, and he quit, but I still would have thought by being a 4 year old riding horse with months under saddle and used to being in a stall that he would have grown out of that a long time before. He was more of a “fight” horse, less “flight” but he wasn’t so great at regulating his own nervous system for quite a long time, and I used methods like TRT to help him with that. It did help that he was an “in your pocket” gelding and also treat motivated for sure (compared to your horse), but it was still a process.

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