[QUOTE=Canterbury Court;7164713]
How about this one:
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10617279&blood=10"a=
Also combines two great damlines - Marbel and Landshaft[/QUOTE]
This one is not sex balanced in the first five because the only doubled lines are son and son and daughter and daughter. Woermann comes in twice through sons and Absatz through daughters. It is top and bottom balanced, just not sex balanced.
Yes, linebreeding can cause recessive issues to come out. A prime example is the QH Impressive, who is actually responsible for introducing HYPP to the breed. When they started linebreeding to him, it came out.
But linebreeding in and of itself does not change or modify the genetic ‘package’ coming from a horse. So if a horse doesn’t have a particular issue, then it won’t come through.
So the idea is to “go back to the well” so to speak, and make multiple crosses to outstanding horses in hopes of reproducing the excellent part of those animals.
The Arab breeders take this about as far as I would want…and sometimes farther. One of the most influential stallions of the modern age was produced by breeding a stallion to his own daughter…
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/raffles3
Didn’t seem to hurt anything…
BTW, would this be an example of sex-balanced breeding? Breeding a father to a daughter?
[QUOTE=Kyzteke;7165076]
Yes, linebreeding can cause recessive issues to come out. A prime example is the QH Impressive, who is actually responsible for introducing HYPP to the breed. When they started linebreeding to him, it came out.
But linebreeding in and of itself does not change or modify the genetic ‘package’ coming from a horse. So if a horse doesn’t have a particular issue, then it won’t come through.
So the idea is to “go back to the well” so to speak, and make multiple crosses to outstanding horses in hopes of reproducing the excellent part of those animals.
The Arab breeders take this about as far as I would want…and sometimes farther. One of the most influential stallions of the modern age was produced by breeding a stallion to his own daughter…
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/raffles3
Didn’t seem to hurt anything…
BTW, would this be an example of sex-balanced breeding? Breeding a father to a daughter?[/QUOTE]
No. This is plain ol incest .
<lol> did you guys look at the Arabian pedigree posted on the first page?
Kyzteke: HYPP is not a recessive gene; it is a dominant gene. It is believed to be a spontaneous mutation that originated with Impressive rather than a gene that had existed in the breed for many generations.
[QUOTE=Dawn J-L;7169115]
Kyzteke: HYPP is not a recessive gene; it is a dominant gene. It is believed to be a spontaneous mutation that originated with Impressive rather than a gene that had existed in the breed for many generations.
http://vet.tufts.edu/sports/hypp.html[/QUOTE]
It sounds like a codominant inheritance. A true dominate would only need one copy and a second copy wouldn’t make a difference. Which is not observed as only having one copy has greatly reduced symptoms, in general.
So I looked it up…
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10213428
[QUOTE=stoicfish;7169136]
It sounds like a codominant inheritance. A true dominate would only need one copy and a second copy wouldn’t make a difference. Which is not observed as only having one copy has greatly reduced symptoms, in general.
So I looked it up…
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10213428[/QUOTE]
Thank you for the clarification. 
I was torn on how precise to be with the terminology, and erred on the side of over-simplifying. Since the basic info from Tufts used the term “dominant” without further clarification, I followed suit rather than search for a better link. Mea culpa.
Here is an interesting pedigree for a stallion in the October Hanoverian Elite Auction: http://212.114.39.29/app/_view/detail.htm?country=uk&auktion=583&tab=HANNOVERANER_elite_12102013&id=2
[QUOTE=Bent Hickory;7170653]
Here is an interesting pedigree for a stallion in the October Hanoverian Elite Auction: http://212.114.39.29/app/_view/detail.htm?country=uk&auktion=583&tab=HANNOVERANER_elite_12102013&id=2[/QUOTE]
Yes, with the F-line and Ehrensold. http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?d=Equitaris&x=26&y=13
To resurrect this thread… my understanding is that certain traits are linked to x or y chromosomes so to sex balance line breeding you need a son and a daughter of a certain stallion to get all traits. But we are typically (hopefully!!!) talking about 4th or more generations, so there are multiple generations between the son, daughter, and the horse who’s pedigree we are looking at. Because mares and stallions both have x chromosomes, the generations between the daughter and the ‘final product’ could be daughters or sons and still carry that x chromosome of the stallion we are line breeding to, but with every breeding there is less of a chance that it is THAT stallion’s x chromosome that got passed. On the flip side, if we look at the son half of our sex balancing, if there is any mare between the original stallion and the final product, or if the final product is a mare, then that Y chromosome is lost.
So how much merit is there really to a sex balanced pedigree?? It seems to me the only real sure fire sex balancing is if the mother is the direct daughter of the line bred stallion, and the stallion then shows up again (as many generations back as you want) on the very very top of the pedigree. AND the resulting horse only gets that homoxygosity if it is a colt??
Am I alone in wondering this???
I do think there is merit to far back line breeding, assuming there is plenty of outcross blood in there too. If a stallion shows up in a pedigree 2 times at generation 4 or more, I think that is fine. If it shows up 3 times at generation 6 or more, I think that is good too. More times then that better be WAY WAY back there! But that is just me… anyone else???
I love to post this horse’s pedigree - picture included
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/phi+slama+jama
-since he is an example of doubled and redoubled ancestry and inbreeding to the best of each generation in a different breed.
This would likely frighten Sport breeders, yet it does point up the necessity of knowing the ancestors and what they are contributing to the pool.
Closebreeding increases the chances of like genes meeting up. Whether those are good or bad, and can or should be bred away from through outcrossing is a breeder’s dilemma.
Most people nowadays try NOT to inbreed.
Whether that is wise; only the future 30 years from now will tell us in hindsight.
[QUOTE=beowulf;7164092]
But forgive me for my inquiry, when you breed a close relative it obviously narrows down the gene pool diversity - do any “malign” effects (IE defects) to inbreeding/line breeding ever happen? As I am imagining close siblings being bred in cats and the effects thereof are not usually very flattering… Obviously horses are different in most that I’ve seen with linebreeding/inbreeding up close have no gross defects… how come?[/QUOTE]
There can be problems…I just don’t think you hear about it too often. The old adage seems to be true: It is called line breeding if it works. It is called inbreeding if it doesn’t work! 
A great example of the problems that can potentially happen when line breeding/inbreeding is the Friesian breed. It is common knowledge that there can be some major fertility problems with this breed. The theory is that it is directly related to line breeding/in breeding within the breed. There are also some major health issues with the Friesian breed that one needs to be careful of. Among them, dwarfism and hydrocephalus. Connemara Ponies are susceptible to Hoof Wall Separation Syndrome. I could go on.
I’m of the opinion that, if in the wild, animals normally avoid inbreeding, then Mother Nature is clearly trying to tell us something. But of course, as humans, we seemed to be inclined to manipulate Mother Nature. I totally understand doubling up on a specific equine trait to help create a better athlete, etc…but is it possible it is potentially causing other problems for us in generations to come?
In saying all of that, our now deceased pony hunter stallion, Penrhyn Sporting Chance, was a result of breeding the son back to the dam. www.allbreedpedigree.com/penrhyn+sporting+chance He’s arguably one of the more successful pony hunter stallions in the last few decades. His kids have all done well on the circuit. Talented…but could be tough to get started and get to the ring. Sporting Chance himself was tough, a spitfire and full of non-stop energy right up until the end. So then one has to question, is that line just naturally hot and hard-headed…or did that undesirable trait come out as a result of inbreeding?
As someone that comes from the purebred cat fancy world, I absolutely disagree with this statement. But then, if you are not familiar with purebred cats and the various registries available, it might not be common knowledge. Purebred cats are most definitely selectively bred. Ask any Sphynx or Maine Coon breeders and they can talk to you for days regarding pedigrees, traits and selective breeding.
[QUOTE=Daventry;8044244]
As someone that comes from the purebred cat fancy world, I absolutely disagree with this statement. But then, if you are not familiar with purebred cats and the various registries available, it might not be common knowledge. Purebred cats are most definitely selectively bred. Ask any Sphynx or Maine Coon breeders and they can talk to you for days regarding pedigrees, traits and selective breeding. ;)[/QUOTE]
I had to go back 18 posts and a year and half
The whole quote was
Cats are not selectively bred. Well, probably not in the case you are thinking of.
As the person I was responding to was using the barn cat scenario. She also brought up rats in the next post. (I know, people selectively bred rats)
And “mother nature” line breeds all the time. Think of a herd of deer and one of the young offspring becoming the next breeding buck, he is breeding his mother and sisters as well as his aunts. Think about remote populations of animals (or people). They line breed as there are no other options.
So do you still breed cats? I went to a couple of shows and found it verry interesting. And yes I am aware of the breeds of cats, but you have to admit that by numbers there are way more feral/random bred cats then purpose bred cats.
I took it to mean that Beowulf was speaking about pedigreed/breeding cats. My understanding with Mother Nature, for the most part, the young males get forced out of the herd and pushed into a bachelor herd, so that inbreeding does not become a problem.
I don’t breed cats…and hate to admit it, but I do show them. I have a Maine Coon and a Kurilian Bobtail that I show when I’m not at a horse show. 
[QUOTE=Daventry;8044307]
I took it to mean that Beowulf was speaking about pedigreed/breeding cats. My understanding with Mother Nature, for the most part, the young males get forced out of the herd and pushed into a bachelor herd, so that inbreeding does not become a problem.
I don’t breed cats…and hate to admit it, but I do show them. I have a Maine Coon and a Kurilian Bobtail that I show when I’m not at a horse show. :D[/QUOTE]
They do but then they get to come back for breeding season.
This is a good article about the subject as it addresses some of the research about inbreeding depression and how it plays out naturally.
http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.1086/286176?uid=2129&uid=2&uid=70&uid=4&sid=21105557521081
I am not arguing that line breeding is the best case in nature, just saying it happens all the time. If there are genetic issues in a “confined” population then it can lead to issues of course. And hybrid vigour would be more healthy for that group. Nature has both scenarios.
Inbreeding occurred regularly: 59% all matings were between known relatives.
Hence, despite substantial inbreeding depression in this population, we found little evidence for inbreeding avoidance through mate choice. We present a simple model to suggest that variation in inbreeding avoidance behaviors in birds may arise from differences in survival rates: in species with low survival rates, the costs of forfeiting matings to avoid inbreeding may exceed the costs of inbreeding.
Interesting that this thread should pop up again. Breeding IS manipulating Nature because we are trying to produce something specific in either looks or ability. “Nature” is just trying to get some numbers out there to survive & then reproduce again.
If inbreeding creates a weakness, Nature will do the culling.
Re linebreeding/inbreeding being back in the 3rd/4th G. Well, some breeder did those crosses on purpose in “real time”, so they obviously thought they would get immediate results. And very often they did.
As others have said, it’s a very valid breeding practice that has been used for centuries. But, as others have said, you MUST know your stock…and you MUST be prepared to cull relentlessly if you were wrong.
http://www.pedigreequery.com/im+a+bird2
I just came across this pedigree and found it an interesting because I don’t think I’ve come across a Storm Bird (Storm Cat) sex linked pedigree. Also sex linked Mr. Prospector.
Does this pedigree qualify …or is it too close. I own both and I do not see any physical issues to crossing the two…they compliment each other. But as I have not tried this before would be curious to have feed back
All pedigrees are sex-balanced line-bred.
You start off with a stallion on the top side and a mare on the bottom side.
You add one stallion and one mare to the top-side stallion, and one stallion and one mare to the bottom-side mare. You then add two additional stallions and two additional mares to the top side, and two additional stallions and two additional mares to the bottom side.
Continue as before, adding two more stallions and two more mares each time you go back a generation. This keeps your pedigree balanced as to sex, and if you keep your lines straight enough you will not get confused even when the same stallion name begins to appear on each top and bottom side of the pedigree.
Culling works.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3485552/
And hybrid vigor only fully expresses in some outcrosses (not all) and then in the first generation; so you are unable to conserve it in the 2nd and future generations: so outcrossing can bring in hidden recessive negatives, reduce the prepotency of some of the good points you may have developed in your line.
No breeding plan is foolproof.
Finding a good mentor in your breed or bloodlines is a very smart choice.
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