Sex Balanced Line Breeding

From an Arab perspective:

When I first got interested in Arabs lots of breeders were inbreeding to *Raffles, the result of a father/daughter breeding (Skowronek PASB x Rifala, his pedigree was provided earlier in this discussion). When the Polish Arabian invasion came to this country the *Raffles linebred/inbred horses had problems that were greatly improved by out-crossing to the Polish Arab lines, just like the original very inbred/linebred Blunt Arabians were improved by outcrossing to Egyptian Arabs and how the heavily linebred Blunt/Egyptian Arabians were improved by outcrossing to the the Polish Arab Skowronek, *Raffles’ sire, at the Crabbet Park stud in England.

Eventually the only way to improve an inbred line is to out-cross.

I was in a VERY inbred/linebred Arabian breeding group, the pure Davenport-Hamadie group. I could find faults of the original imports in my horses over 70 years later, like *Abeyah"s long sloping pasterns (that can eventually break down even without heavy work), *Muson and *Hamrah’s underslung necks, *Reshan’s too short neck, etc., along with other faults. Don’t get me wrong, the Davenports can be wonderful horses, they just are not perfect and the line/inbreeding does not help their imperfections. This group has been heavily line/inbred since 1907 except for the accidental introduction of the Hamadie blood in the very earliest days of the Kellogg Ranch (two mares were misidentified, one pure Davenport, one a Davenport-Hamadie Arabian, the later ended up breeding on in the “pure” Davenport group as well as in the general Arabian population.)

The other Arabian population that has been heavily inbred–the Babson Arabians linebred to *Fadl bred to just 4 or 5 imported Egyptian Arabian mares. I think this group has been closed to outside blood since the 1930’s (?).

Before diving in to what is essentially in-breeding light I suggest that you study these groups to see the possible long term effects of this type of breeding.

For another breed, the pure Puerto Rican Paso Finos ALL go back to the stallion Caramelo on all the sire lines, which is a big reason why they got out-crossed with the Columbian Paso Finos up here in the USA, to get a better horse through hybrid vigor.

Inbreeding is like an original sin. REALLY tempting, but in the long run not a particularly great idea if you want sound horses that are usable for performance down through the generations. Believe me, eventually the faults of the horse that is being inbred to WILL come out in at least some of the horses in the future generations, and unless there is ruthless culling these faults will continue to reappear forever. The only reason the TB successfully survived its great inbreeding is that four different breeds of horses went into the original TB, which meant that the TB had a much wider gene base than the Arabian lines in Europe or the USA, or the Puerto Rican Paso Fino lines.

I’m not sure I agree about inbreeding, I think it depends on how you do it. I know the Davenport pool is very small and that you have limited individuals to work with which makes a challenge, on the plus side if you have a fault you know where it comes from which is more than most can say with the typical show ring generated random pedigree.

One always heard with the Raffles horses that he was so genetically strong that you could breed him in every line and I suppose if you liked grey ponies with upright pasterns and a head like a China doll then that would be true.

Would this Arabian pedigree be sex balanced ? http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/pristina12

https://m.facebook.com/626297250808288/photos/a.626297490808264.1073741834.626297250808288/626955420742471/?type=1&source=44

[QUOTE=RPM;8048052]
All pedigrees are sex-balanced line-bred.

You start off with a stallion on the top side and a mare on the bottom side.

You add one stallion and one mare to the top-side stallion, and one stallion and one mare to the bottom-side mare. You then add two additional stallions and two additional mares to the top side, and two additional stallions and two additional mares to the bottom side.

Continue as before, adding two more stallions and two more mares each time you go back a generation. This keeps your pedigree balanced as to sex, and if you keep your lines straight enough you will not get confused even when the same stallion name begins to appear on each top and bottom side of the pedigree.[/QUOTE]

You either have a wicked dry sense of humor…
I agree with the straight lines. Very important in breeding.

The Arab example above is sex balanced but it is also a sister and bother mated 2 generations in a row. That is fairly intense and not seen in Wb’s or Tb’s very often if much at all. But if you can image some other limbs on that family tree, then it is an example.

Here is a definition that gives examples. http://www.sport-horse-breeder.com/sex-balance.html

Sex balanced through Harrison Chief and his son Bourbon Chief, and further back Black Squirrel.
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/anacacho+trail

Mare lived to be 37, I think. Had foals every year, last foal at 34…yes, 34.
State Street was her last foal and was a nice sire. His full sibling was Bourbon Genius King, also a good sire.

[QUOTE=Daventry;8044244]
There can be problems…I just don’t think you hear about it too often. The old adage seems to be true: It is called line breeding if it works. It is called inbreeding if it doesn’t work! :wink:

A great example of the problems that can potentially happen when line breeding/inbreeding is the Friesian breed. It is common knowledge that there can be some major fertility problems with this breed. The theory is that it is directly related to line breeding/in breeding within the breed. There are also some major health issues with the Friesian breed that one needs to be careful of. Among them, dwarfism and hydrocephalus. [/QUOTE]

I don’t think anyone denies that thing can go awry doing this sort of breeding, but my understanding is that part of the problem w/the Friesans was simply because there was such a small gene-pool left they really didn’t have much of a choice on who to use.

OTOH, (lifted from Wiki):All Przewalski horses in the world are descended from nine of the 13 (two of which were hybrids, one being from a wild horse stallion and domestic mare and the other from a wild stallion and a tarpan mare) horses in captivity in 1945.[SUP][11][/SUP] These thirteen horses were mostly descended from approximately 15 captured around 1900. A cooperative venture between the Zoological Society of London and Mongolian scientists has resulted in successful reintroduction of these horses from zoos into their natural habitat in Mongolia; and as of 2011 there is an estimated free-ranging population of over 300 in the wild.[SUP][12][/SUP] From a population of 31 horses in captivity in 1945, the total number of these horses by the early 1990s was over 1,500.[SUP][13][/SUP]

So currently a population of 1500 from 13 originals. We assume no one has been born with 2 heads just yet.

[QUOTE=Kyzteke;8050552]
So currently a population of 1500 from 13 originals. We assume no one has been born with 2 heads just yet.[/QUOTE]

No way that you can assume that - Mother Nature culls ruthlessly.

[QUOTE=Bent Hickory;8050586]
No way that you can assume that - Mother Nature culls ruthlessly.[/QUOTE]

Well, of course this is true, but my understanding is that they have only been functioning as “wild” herds very recently.

Up until that time most of the animals were in private herds or zoos. None were actually in the wild state. I recall there was a big celebration when the first of the horses were re-introduced into the Mongolian steppes.

However, I think it bears repeating over and over and over again…EVERY breeding requires culling; ie, NOT using some individuals for reproduction.

What about Fürstenball and his son Follow Me? Do they count as sex balanced line breeding?

[QUOTE=half*pass;8050826]
What about Fürstenball and his son Follow Me? Do they count as sex balanced line breeding?[/QUOTE]

Follow Me - yes. Donnerhall is represented on both sire and dam side of the pedigree, through a son and a daughter.

Fuerstenball - No. Donnerhall is represented on both sire and dam side of the pedigree, BUT through 2 daughters.
(same for Furioso, same sex of offspring used.)

Note that breeding to mathematical formulas is doomed to failure unless the individual horses are also taken into account and their inheritance offsets weaknesses in the partners.

What might be the effect if full brothers are used such that one provides a daughter and the other a son? So perhaps Canturo on an Indoctro dam? Ie, Caletto I and II.

[QUOTE=knowthatifly;8058924]
What might be the effect if full brothers are used such that one provides a daughter and the other a son? So perhaps Canturo on an Indoctro dam? Ie, Caletto I and II.[/QUOTE]

Not full brothers but an example of full siblings can be found in Askari’s pedigree. http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/21572?levels=6

[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;8048953]
Culling works.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3485552/

And hybrid vigor only fully expresses in some outcrosses (not all) and then in the first generation; so you are unable to conserve it in the 2nd and future generations: so outcrossing can bring in hidden recessive negatives, reduce the prepotency of some of the good points you may have developed in your line.

No breeding plan is foolproof.
Finding a good mentor in your breed or bloodlines is a very smart choice.[/QUOTE]

I found this very interesting, although I will confess I did not understand all the technical terminology.

But I think this herd must be exhibiting some reproductive or survival issues because why are there only 97 individuals after some 80 yrs of breeding?

If I read that correctly, in 1947 there were only some 13 left…now there are 97. Well, that is not a very good reproductive rate.

Are these cattle managed & bred by people who control who breeds with who, or are they TRULY wild, where everything is controlled by the cattle?

And I find your comment about hybrid vigor interesting. How can you test “hybrid vigor?” How does one test to see if it’s lost or not? I’m not sure this can actually be proven one way or the other, can it?

[QUOTE=Jackie Cochran;8049485]

Eventually the only way to improve an inbred line is to out-cross.

Inbreeding is like an original sin. [/QUOTE]

First statement: very true. Even the most ardent believer in linebreeding/inbreeding will tell you to outcross every few generations.

Second statement: that comes from a human perspective…sin. Biology doesn’t have sin. And certain cultures actually felt that the royal families(s) were actually descended from gods, so to keep their lines “pure” they could only marry within those “pure” lines.

European royalty was always being married off to their cousins. Even first cousins were considered ok. Ancient Egyptain pharaohs married their sisters. And I seem to recall something about Hawaiian royalty doing some pretty close “mating.”

Personally, I think “purity” in breeding brings absolutely nothing to the table when breeding. When I first started breeding I was told it sets type, but I’m not even sure of that any more.

That’s why I like WBs…they are purpose bred.

And if you will look at ALL breeds of dogs, horses, etc. you will notice that even among purebred breeds, ones bred for a certain discipline don’t always look like those bred for another discipline, even if they are the same breed.

In France (for example) those Arabs bred for racing don’t look ANYTHING like our halter bred Arabs.

And cutting-bred QHs don’t look anything like halter QHs. Form follows function, and if you are breeding for a particular discipline, you (or at least I do) pay attention to form first, and assume that form will have a better chance of producing the desired function.

And here is the reality of breeding; you are going to produce some animals that are a miss. Obviously you don’t want to put some animal’s life in danger by purposely risking a clearly “iffy” cross.

But outcrossing can produce junk as well. If someone said I am going to give you a foal and you MUST take it. And I would have to choose between a WB foal who had…say, 5 crosses to Donnerhall in it’s pedigree and another foal who was a cross between a champion reining QH and champion saddle-seat saddlebred…well, inbreeding or not, I know which one I would choose…:winkgrin:

http://www.noble.org/ag/livestock/heterosis/

"There is more to hybrid vigor than just taking a crossbred cow and breeding her with any old bull. Numerous studies have been conducted over the years to look at this very subject. If you want to take full advantage of this phenomenon, there has to be some thought put into the process.

One of the most effective and simplest ways for calves to exhibit hybrid vigor is to use an F1 cow and a pure-blood bull of known performance and ancestry; this is what the Foundation livestock specialists have been suggesting to certain cooperators. Use of a pure-blood bull allows the producer to have some predictability of how the bull’s progeny will perform.

…an average F1 crossbred cow returns up to $70 more per cow per year than the average straight-bred cow."

This is cattle, and Hybrid vigor or Heterosis is highest in the first cross
-of two BEEF breeds. (both bred for beef).

http://cattletoday.com/archive/2012/October/CT2846.php

Using an f1 Brahman -X female to produce (meat).

Hybrid vigor is most fully expressed when you use bulls and cows of known ancestry - not just breeding any bull to a cow you pick up from Joe down the road or you bought at the sale barn because the price was right. Work conducted at Texas A&M University by Dr. Jim Sanders has shown a 10 to 20 percentage point increase in calf crop born to F1 cows (a cow which is a first-generation cross between two breeds) when compared to straight-bred cows. The advantage will fall dramatically when F2 (F1 x F1 bred cows) or greater cows are used.

"Hybrid vigor, or heterosis, is the increased production of certain traits from the crossing of genetically different individuals. The offspring exceed the average performance of their parents for traits for which hybrid vigor is expressed. For example, Breed A averages 610 pounds at weaning, and Breed B averages 590 pounds at weaning. When crossed, the A x B calves average 625 pounds at weaning. "
http://msucares.com/pubs/publications/p2755.pdf

http://beefmagazine.com/mag/beef_crossbreeding_composites

I like to use cattle as examples because there is alot of measurement based research on them, they produce one offspring per female.

As a breeder, I’'d probably take the cutter x Saddlebred and back-cross to the Saddlebred; because I know Saddlebred genetics and would get a useful Event type (which I like).

I wouldn’t expect a Dressage horse from the cross.

However, if that crossbred had wins at upper level dressage, and I wanted a Dressage horse, I might go looking for a triple linebred Donnerhall stallion to breed it to…

Most horses were purpose bred for very functional uses prior to WWII.

The purpose of many European breeds changed after WWII and thus the ‘Sport-bred WB’.

Some would argue that Dressage WB and Jump WB and Event WB are not the same purposes, so not really any better crosses than, say TB or Irish Draft or …Quarterhorses
-between disciplines.

re: the Chillingham cattle
Chillingham Park (135 ha) and the fenced woodlands around and within it (139
ha), with the Warden’s Cottage and various wayleaves and easements were bought for
… from College Valley Estates. CVE manages landholdings in Northumberland which have been purchased for the public good by and on behalf of the Sir James Knott Charitable Trust, of Newcastle. The Trust had purchased the Chillingham properties in 1980 from the estate of the late 9th Earl of Tankerville and following the foot and mouth outbreak of 2001, CVE recognized that the ownership of the cattle and of the Park should be reunited. Thus, the cattle and the Park are now reunited under the same ownership and management, which they had effectively ceased to be in 1939 when CWCA was established as a tenant of the Tankerville estate."

It isn’t a huge area, which has been reduced, and there has been sheep grazing, and there was WWII…

http://eprints.lincoln.ac.uk/5777/1/__ddat01_staffhome_bjones_RDS_Desktop_JRASE%20Chillingham%20-%20ecopy%20(2).pdf

Outbreeding Depression
Hybrid doesn’t always equal vigor…

http://www.genetics.org/content/180/3/1593.full

With animals, if you find something that works, continue doing that.
If it doesn’t, then no matter what the ‘experts’ SAY should happen, stop doing that and try something else.

AKA “Your mileage may vary…”

Komodo Dragons and other lizards are capable of self-fertilization:
http://animalworld.tumblr.com/post/2148013083/komodo-dragons-can-reproduce-through

And then there are some worms…
http://phys.org/news/2012-11-self-fertilizing-worms-thousands-genes-reproduction.html

These are very closely bred horses:
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/index.php?query_type=horse&h=WILD-EYED+WARRIOR&g=5&cellpadding=0&small_font=1&l=

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HU3RlPaxEx0

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/index.php?query_type=horse&h=WILD+PROMISES&g=5&cellpadding=0&small_font=1&l=

Wild Promises is the dam of two nice Stallions.
-bred to less closely related stallions