Shifting before jumps and twisting body in air?

[blacksheep]

Edit: Videos in comments

Just returned from the vet without any answers and wonder if anyone might hazard a guess on what’s going on with my poor boy

At some point in the last year, he lost lead changes behind from right to left. He has also begun to shift to one side at jumps one stride before take off. He twists his hind end the other direction in the air and usually lands straight, only for hindquarters to drift sideways again for a stride. He’s also dropped a pile of weight despite being very well fed, wormed, etc. Neither stable he’s been at in the last year has been able to get any more weight on him.

He’s under a new (as of two months) professional ride and correct work has exacerbated whatever’s going on, so it’s not a fitness or pilot issue.

Vet was convinced based on above that he’d have kissing spines but back looks good on x-ray. Nothing came up in flexion or on circle. Vet has suggested getting a full body bonescan done.

Anyone have any guesses or experience with similar issues? This wasn’t my regular orthopedic vet and I wasn’t present for the work up, so I’m still wrapping my head around the whole thing and would love to know if anything jumps out to anyone. Thanks

[SuzieQNutter]

Basically a horse in pain loses weight.

When I first bought Pepper we had no trouble jumping.

One day I rode him 1 hour to the ponyclub. No problems with walk, trot and cantering.

I jumped him over a small hedge jump and he threw me up. I just happened to land in the saddle.

I thought that was terrible and I tried again. The exact same thing happened and I took him home.

On advice I called a chiropractor who came out with a tennis ball and put him back in.

No problem jumping.

Until 6 months later and the same thing happened.

Rinse and repeat 6 months later.

When it happened 6 months later, a cleaner answered the phone and no information on where the former tenant was.

My instructor suggested another chiropractor.

When he got out of the car he had 2 rubber mallets.

I was a very very quiet child. I was about 15yo. I had heard a chiropractor was going around with rubber mallets and the horses had had to be put down.

I met him at the front gate. Thanked him so much for coming and gave him his money, however I also said he could go as I didn’t want him to do my horse.

Bless him. He accepted the money and said he had time to get to his next appointment and did he mind if we chatted? He asked me about myself and Pepper and what was wrong and was interested in what I was doing. About lessons, who with etc. I was taking lessons weekly.

Then he asked why I had called him.

Because my instructor had given me his phone number.

And tell me do you trust your instructor?

He got me. Yes I did. He explained his accreditations, that he had never hurt a horse, he could help me and he would really like to look at Pepper and he promised me he would not hurt him.

He explained what was wrong and that what was wrong could not be fixed with a tennis ball. A horses back and muscles are too strong. He put one mallet on the back and gently tapped it with the other one.

Pepper went on to win at eventing and the Zone 1 D grade Showjumping Championships. He was with me into his 30s and he never threw me up over a jump again.

[Tini_Sea_Soldier1]

How old? If older than 10, when was the last time hocks/stifles injected?
Tested for EPM? Those would be my first questions.
Second, new professional, but same tack? Has anyone done a saddle fit? If he’s being pinched, maybe he’s trying to evade the pain on landing side?
As much as I’m not a huge fan myself… do you have an equine chiropractor? Might not be a bad idea to have a good one come out and do an evaluation?

[blacksheep]

He’s 6. Left my barn fat and happy at 4 years old to be backed, came home for a few months off over summer, then went back again fat and happy. Videos and visits over the next five months suggested he was going well. Still looked like himself, popped around baby heights, had very natural lead changes. Then some time between March and May, during Covid chaos, when I couldn’t visit, he became very thin. I was shocked when I finally saw him and brought him home. First couple days were fine. Day three it was like a switch had flipped. Had the fall of my life off him (not much in it for him, he grabbed the bit before I was fully in the tack and managed to catapult me into the fence at speed… I watched him prance and play while I lay waiting for the ambulance, so pretty sure it wasn’t this incident that hurt him!). Trainer explained he could sometimes be “cold-backed.” So seems likely to me now that whatever’s going on with him happened under her care.

I sent him to a seasoned professional to be trained for sale. Different tack, different program. He was there for a year. Horse stayed thin despite their efforts and lead changes regressed. He developed the twist over fences. This trainer had him looked at by a physio a few times and we discussed injecting his stifles or having him assessed, but he was never unsound and trainer didn’t feel it necessary.

I moved him again last month. New rider, new tack, new program. We agreed to have him checked over if there was no improvement with new program. He looks less comfortable. So here we are today.

My hunch is that he either got cast or had a fall, though I know his breaker lunged him way more than I’d have preferred, so who knows

We don’t have EPM here, so that’s one thing I can rule out

[AnastasiaBeaverhousen]

You may want to cross post this in the Horse Care forum . Very knowledgeable posters there.

Unresolved pain can cause Ulcers which creates more pain and so you get a vicious cycle.

You may want to have a vet scope your horse for Ulcers. Especially hind gut Ulcers.

What breed is your horse? He may have metabolic disorders which could explain his loss of topline.

Hope this helps.
Good luck

[Janet]

I am not a vet, so you can take it with a large pinch of salt, but, from your description, I would suspect his sacroiliac joint. (For the twisting, not necessarily for losing weight.)

[Moneypitt]

Out of curiosity what is the breed and bloodlines?

Any changes to picking out and or shoeing hind feet; such as difficulty?

Have the neck and cervical spine been X-rayed?

Any chance it might be something like but not limited to PSSM2?

Any changes to diet? Is the horse getting fully fortified feed?

Any supplements? If so; what are you giving?

Are you in the UK? (because you state no EPM). Or?

[blacksheep]

He’s a KWPN with Chin Chin and Galoubet on the sire side and Grandino and Baloubet du Rouet in his damline.

Neck and cervical spine x-rayed yesterday, all good.

Horse is getting fortified feed and quality hay. He has also been given several 3-6 week holidays in the field on 24/7 grass and gained only minimal weight, which was again dropped once back in work.

We haven’t considered PSSM. No sign of tying up or abnormal sweats. I haven’t experience with either form, though.

No supps but once he’s home, I might try him on Succeed for his hindgut. And possibly 4cyte for joints.

We’re in Ireland.

[blacksheep]

Thank you, that was also my guess, along with stifles. He was kept in a very small stall for several months (old barn with a couple non-regulation sized stables. Naturally my horse was chucked in there during Covid, when I wasn’t able to visit ). I would be surprised if he didn’t get cast at some point, tbh. Trainer mentioned he wasn’t fully square yesterday on the circle in his work up. I wasn’t there unfortunately, so I’m not sure if SI was discussed. I must call to find out.

[Clover5]

Does he by chance do a sort of ‘bounce’ with the hind end? Maybe not a full a bunny hop, just the hind end seems to have extra tiny ‘spring’ with each canter step?

Edit to add: It’s a little hard to explain but if you felt comfortable sharing a video I could probably tell you if he does what I’m describing or not.

[blacksheep]

He’s a KWPN. I think you might be right about ulcers. Seems to me a lot of people have reached “ulcer fatigue” and are very quick to say it isn’t ulcers whether or not the horse has been scoped. I thought he might have gastric issues last year and probably should have pressed the matter when I was met with skepticism.

[blacksheep]

I know what you mean, and no, he doesn’t do that. But he used to have quite a powerful canter and hind end now seems almost disconnected at times. I’ll see if I can upload a video

[blacksheep]

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[blacksheep]

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[Clover5]

Looking at the videos I don’t see that tiny bounce either.

The way he jumps reminds me of a horse I knew. He would launch sideways across the jump if he wasn’t held very straight. He got hock injections every few months but honestly never seemed quite right; I don’t know if it was just the hocks or if something else was bothering him.

Lead change difficulty makes me think something high up - SI issues (although generally proper strengthening work should help that), or a hip/pelvis injury, maybe from being cast?

How is he on the lunge? If he picks up the wrong lead does he swap back or does he counter-canter or crossfire? At liberty does his hip drift sideways like it does under saddle? Would it be possible to try free jumping him? I’d be curious if he has the same issues you describe without the weight of a rider or the influence of a saddle.

The weight issues make me think ulcers too. When my mare had ulcers it was almost impossible to get weight on her, once she started getting ulcer supplements, alfalfa, and high-oil grain she put the weight back on.

He looks like a lovely boy, I’m sorry you’re going through this. And goodness he has a lot of power!! I hope he gets better.

[blacksheep]

Thank you for your lovely reply. That’s interesting about the horse you knew! I have a mare with Chin Chin blood as well and she’s also big and powerful, but somewhat mysteriously stiff.

The lead changes bother me as he got them very naturally in his first six months of ridden work. I switched rider as I hoped the lead changes and crooked jump were a rider/fitness issue but no such luck. We’ve found that if he’s forced to maintain straightness before and over the jump he loses power. It’s odd as it’s not every jump and not necessarily toward the end of the course, either, when one might expect it to come out more as he tires. If he’s forced into his right to left change he moves laterally almost to avoid, gets the change, and then swaps behind at the corner and goes into a cross canter.

Very good question/thought about lunge work and freejumping. Vet yesterday said he was not tracking consistently square at the canter. I haven’t seen him lunged or had him in my possession since last summer, so I’d be interested to see what he’s like when I bring him home.

I’m eager to get him on a hindgut supplement and investigate this with my own vet. Makes sense in every way that he has ulcers. Wish the orthopedic stuff was as clear cut

[Clover5]

Is his muscling crooked? Losing power when forced to be straight sounds like an asymmetry. If not in the muscle then maybe something in the joints?

This might be a bit strange but when you have him home, maybe try walking him down a hill? My mom’s horse has had a history of SI issues, and when he was worse walking him downhill bareback was not comfortable. Each step would be very jarring and there was no fluidity. As he strengthened and improved his walk became quite smooth and totally comfortable to ride downhill, even without a saddle. Maybe not the best diagnostic tool for a specific issue but something to look at?

[Moneypitt]

Yes. I watched your videos. Very odd. Definitely appears to be something bothering the horse.

Does he canter stilted or sideways at all?

[blacksheep]

He doesn’t canter sideways on the flat unless asked for a lead change from right to left

[blacksheep]

Muscling isn’t crooked, he appears fairly symmetrical. I will try the downhill walk. I think there’s definitely something going on with his SI.