Shivers-Conflicting Opinions

[Hakuna_Matata]

Hi Everone…Last week had a PPE done on a 10 year old quarter horse that I am looking to buy for my 12 year old. The vet said he had Shivers…our trainer completely disagrees. Went in to the barn today and the trainer brought another vet and the farrier in and they both said no way does this horse have shivers. The owner is so convinced that he will guarantee that this horse does not have shivers for at least one year.

The farrier says he is one of the easiest horses to shoe and has never had a problem. Has anyone else experienced such a varying degree of opinions on shivers…so confused???

[SAcres]

What made the vet that did the PPE diagnose shivers?

[Hakuna_Matata]

I am waiting for his written report…I have never heard of shivers before the PPE so I did not ask the right questions…been researching it since then…just really surprised about the conflicting opinions.

[WW_Queen]

Not as though vets can’t be wrong… but stack the medical knowledge about neurological deficits in horses by a veterinarian against the “opinion” of a trainer/farrier/coach etc. and that should be the answer to your question.

Shivers can get worse over time. Talk to the vet and find out why he/she feels the horse could be neurological. If you have any doubts, it’s better to get a 2nd opinion from another vet than just the annedoctal opinion of say the farrier or a trainer (not as though they aren’t knowledgable, but neuro issues can be very, very subtle and only triggered by certain tests, especially in the early stages.)

There are so many horses available right now… unless this is a once-in-a-lifetime horse for ridiculously cheap and you can afford to lose the money/retire this horse/buy another one as your backup plan if this horse gets way worse… just pass.

[horsefaerie]

It should be fairly obvious if the horse has shivers. I’d want to know why the vet said the horse had the condition? I have had and worked with horses with shivers. It can be frustrating.

[Katyusha]

I kind of dealt with the same situation in regards to buying a horse with shivers. Shivers was the unanimous vote (pretty obvious) plus he has an OCD lesion. BUT, I got the horse for free because of this. I was also told “there are so many other horses…” But this one is so flipping amazing and has such a great head and takes care of me, that it didn’t matter. He can still function and do what I want to do with him. In my case, his shivers got better - I just have to keep him working and fit. I spoke with my vet about his condition and how he may or may not be affected in the future and this conversation determined whether I was going to keep him.

I would also suggest a second opinion; I wouldn’t weigh the education of a vet against a farrier or a trainer, either.

[Hakuna_Matata]

Still waiting for the report from my vet…the owner of the horse brought in a second vet that he paid for who said this horse did not have shivers. Almost need a third vet to come in for a tie-breaker. And this horse is not cheap…which is why the owner will guarantee against shivers for one year…so anxious to hear what the first vet saw…how 2 vets have such conflicting opinions…but this is a business after all.

[HorseKrazy]

Why the one year window? I have a gelding that just got diagnosed with shivers. He is still very rideable and only shows symptoms when his right hind is picked up. It was thought, for awhile now, that the reaction he has been showing was just arthritic pain as it was limited and unilateral. But there is no denying that he has shivers now. Have you educated yourself on shivers yet? Is this something you are prepared to take on? 1 year may not mean too much in the next 10 if it is shivers. I personally wouldnt right him off the list just yet, but I would definitely spend some time familiarizing myself with the horses potential future needs. But, on the other hand, there are a lot of horses on the market right now and you have the luxury of being picky

[Hakuna_Matata]

I am trying to educate myself and I understand so much more than I did last week. The owner is so convinced that this horse does not have Shivers that if we see any signs or symptoms of shivers in the next year he will take the horse back for a full refund…YIKES

[alterhorse]

I the horse does have only mild shivers it may be difficult to detect. Shivers is thought be some to be a degenerative neurological disorder that progressively worsens over time. The time it takes for those symptoms to seriously effect the use of the horse can vary from horse to horse. So a valid diagnosis of shivers is an important consideration to weigh when considering the purchase of a horse with shivers.

Knowing exactly what symptoms the vet made the diagnosis from, is the first step to validating that they are indeed shivers symptoms with another vet.

[thatmoody]

Vet #3 is my vote - get someone in who has experience with neurological conditions. I had a horse with a subtle neurological issue that DID get worse - it took him more than a year to degenerate and it was heartbreaking.

[Katyusha]

[QUOTE=Hakuna Matata;6498864]
Still waiting for the report from my vet…the owner of the horse brought in a second vet that he paid for who said this horse did not have shivers. Almost need a third vet to come in for a tie-breaker. And this horse is not cheap…which is why the owner will guarantee against shivers for one year…so anxious to hear what the first vet saw…how 2 vets have such conflicting opinions…but this is a business after all.[/QUOTE]

I’ve always heard one of the rules when vetting a horse you’re going to purchase is - to use your own vet. Or a vet you picked.
Getting an opinion from the vet the seller using, can be obviously, very, very biased.

[TrotTrotPumpkn]

I would be inclined to give more weight to the vet I paid for vs. the seller’s vet. Also, I assume this is all going to be in a contract if you buy this horse? What if you are sure after six months that yes, the horse has shivers, and the seller disagrees?

I would not buy an expensive horse with shivers. I would not buy a horse with shivers if I didn’t have my own farm to retire him/her to if the progression got to severe. This is just me.

[SBrentnall]

I bought an FEI horse with shivers. As long as I kept him away from sugary foods and kept him moving, he was fine. The only sign was when picking his feet you had to let him rest them on your legs because he couldn’t hold them still on his own.

He’s now 26 and happily retired, with no symptoms.

[Hakuna_Matata]

[QUOTE=SBrentnall;6500944]
I bought an FEI horse with shivers. As long as I kept him away from sugary foods and kept him moving, he was fine. The only sign was when picking his feet you had to let him rest them on your legs because he couldn’t hold them still on his own.

He’s now 26 and happily retired, with no symptoms.[/QUOTE]

That is a great happy ending with shivers! Do you mind me asking if the horse is still yours or did you ever sell him?

[Hakuna_Matata]

I had a long conversation with my vet who examined this horse today. He said this horse has a mild case of Shivers but says he does not doubt that he does have shivers. He said he noticed it when he flexed his hind right leg. The tail of the horse shivered. He then went to the other leg and the tail shivered again and the shivers went slightly down his upper leg. He has no issues with the farrier at this time.

He said that the horse may only shiver occasionally at this point and you may have to lift his leg 10 times and he may only shiver once. He was being kind by saying that the owner’s vet may not have seen it. He also said you would not be able to notice it by watching him walk.

He said many horses with shivers have long and successful careers. He said this was a wonderful horse and the shivers may never play a huge part in his life.

He said that the horse may stay like this for a year or 10 years but could also deteriorate quickly. No way of knowing…we don’t have our own barn where we could retire him if he starting deteriorating quickly and we would not have money to buy my daughter another horse if we could not sell this one. It is such a gamble and we are leaning towards passing on this horse.

[alterhorse]

[QUOTE=Hakuna Matata;6500981]
I had a long conversation with my vet who examined this horse today. He said this horse has a mild case of Shivers but says he does not doubt that he does have shivers. He said he noticed it when he flexed his hind right leg. The tail of the horse shivered. He then went to the other leg and the tail shivered again and the shivers went slightly down his upper leg. He has no issues with the farrier at this time.

He said that the horse may only shiver occasionally at this point and you may have to lift his leg 10 times and he may only shiver once. He was being kind by saying that the owner’s vet may not have seen it. He also said you would not be able to notice it by watching him walk.

He said many horses with shivers have long and successful careers. He said this was a wonderful horse and the shivers may never play a huge part in his life.

He said that the horse may stay like this for a year or 10 years but could also deteriorate quickly. No way of knowing…we don’t have our own barn where we could retire him if he starting deteriorating quickly and we would not have money to buy my daughter another horse if we could not sell this one. It is such a gamble and we are leaning towards passing on this horse.[/QUOTE]

I don’t think anyone could ever fault you for making that choice. It’s based on a vet’s opinion, and likely the prudent choice for your situation.

[SBrentnall]

[QUOTE=Hakuna ![](atata;6500976]
That is a great happy ending with shivers! Do you mind me asking if the horse is still yours or did you ever sell him?[/QUOTE]

He’s still mine. No way I’d sell him–he’s my lovebug!

Here he is in his field:
[IMG]http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r215/SBrentnall/Austin/2010-10-23-Barn-5.jpg)

And this was him in his prime:
[IMG]http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r215/SBrentnall/Austin/Canter-WalkSerpentine1.jpg)

[alterhorse]

[QUOTE=SBrentnall;6500993]
He’s st![](ll mine. No way I’d sell him–he’s my lovebug!

Here he is in his field:
[IMG]http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r215/SBrentnall/Austin/2010-10-23-Barn-5.jpg)

And this was him in his prime:
[IMG]http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r215/SBrentnall/Austin/Canter-WalkSerpentine1.jpg)[/QUOTE]

He’s beautiful.

That is one of the difficult things with shivers, as there are thought to be multiple causes for the syndrome. EPSM (equine polysaccharide storage myopathy) is thought by some to be one possible cause.

As such a low sugar, high fat diet could conceivably manage the symptoms very well if EPSM is indeed the cause of shivers for a particular horse.

But the problem is one may not know for sure if EPSM is the cause for a particular horse until enough time has passed to understand fully how dietary change effects that particular horse.

[Katyusha]

@Hakuna Matata;6500981

He said many horses with shivers have long and successful careers. He said this was a wonderful horse and the shivers may never play a huge part in his life.

I have also been told this by my vet plus many other folks. I took a horse with shivers (for free) and now I wouldn’t trade him for anything. It is a tough decision to make though, I’ll give you that!