I think a lot of people mistake the patella (kneecap) for the stifle joint.
I judge the stifle by the hinging aspect of it … where does the hinge function? Below the patella by a long shot.
I do also agree that it is certainly possible for a horse who is naturally built more “uphill” to still carry itself more “downhill” if ridden incorrectly. But, I do still think that it is easier for a horse who isn’t built “downhill” to do the upper level work.
Obviously there will always be exceptions, but too many of the greats were built “uphill” or level.
But, then, I was never one to put much faith in studies when it comes to conformation or movement. I go with what I see in front of me. It didn’t take a study to tell me that RK was bad for the horse either.
I like this, thanks for sharing!
I bred for an eventer, but we’ve done everything from hunter breeding to dressage sport horse breeding and young event horse shows in his first 4 years. At the USDF Championships, the judge noted on his score card “front legs too short for upper level dressage.” Sometimes I think it depends on the judges too, considering he generally scored over 72% in his dressage classes up to 77%. He has a big hind end (still doesn’t make mine look smaller though), short coupled, wide barreled and short cannon bones. But man he moves like a big horse when you get him going and he jumps the moon.
My Dutch WB mare is out of Wolfgang, and like him she has short cannons. This is the same mare that Bo jena told me I should breed - fabulous mover, natural passage, very much uphill!
[QUOTE=stolensilver;7379420]
Dressagelvr you made me think. So I’ve done a search for a conformation photo of Valegro and found one. He’s got lovely conformation but his stifles are definitely 3-4" higher than his elbows.
I think we are so conditioned to seeing horses standing on sloping ground for their PR conformation photos it has skewed our ideas of what their conformation is actually like.
You can see Valegro’s conformation if you scroll down on this link.
http://www.horseandcountry.tv/news/2012/11/16/olympic-riders-launch-new-feed-balancer[/QUOTE]
I love these discussions and am glad to hear of this study by the Dutch as some of the ultra refined, ultra uphill young horses being purpose bred for dressage, do remind me of German Shepherds and are a little freaky looking.
As to the photo of Valegro, I agree that he does look like his stifle is a bit higher than his elbow. Also, what struck me - and it may just be his stance in that photo - is the openess of the angulation of his hind leg. I was expecting more angulation. Anyone else?
[QUOTE=FatCatFarm;7389347]
I love these discussions and am glad to hear of this study by the Dutch as some of the ultra refined, ultra uphill young horses being purpose bred for dressage, do remind me of German Shepherds and are a little freaky looking.
As to the photo of Valegro, I agree that he does look like his stifle is a bit higher than his elbow. Also, what struck me - and it may just be his stance in that photo - is the openess of the angulation of his hind leg. I was expecting more angulation. Anyone else?[/QUOTE]
You need to look for the stifle joint, not at the patella.
Wide open leg angles are common for horses who are talented in dressage. Jumping too for that matter.
This is an interesting read (mentioned on this forum a number of times): http://jwequine.com/jwequine/pdf/Conformation-Eventer.pdf. There’s a picture of a dressage horse early in the article. Judy Wardrope has several ebooks and a column in Warmbloods Today if you’re not already familiar with her. Although I have to say in her ebook that I have (Ten Conformation Myths) I often think where she points out the stifle joint to be seems a little arbitrary. It’s too bad the pictures are not higher resolution and don’t blow up. I also think it can be a little difficult to tell exactly where the stifle joint is in general. Some horses have more prominent patellas than others, making figuring out where the stifle joint is an easier task.
I have heard that about jumpers but not dressage horses. Have always heard that for dressage horses, the more open angle lends itself well to the “sitting” for piaffe and passage but extension, not so much.
Dr. Robert Baird on Sport Horse Conformation and The Breeder: "If the angle is too open at the stifle, there is a tendency to subluxation of the patella. If too open at the hock, concussion may lead to premature arthritis. Closed or more angled hind limb joints are preferred for dressage, but if too long and angled, especially at the hock, soft tissue injuries such as curbs and spavins are more common.
The longer the horse’s hind limb, the easier it is to bring the hocks and hind hooves under the body."
He’s talking about legs that are ridiculously open angled. I knew someone was going to bring up the pathological straight leg as though it is like Valegro’s. His leg looks fine conformationally.
Clearly there is a wide range of leg angles that will work. Jumpers have to be able to extend, clearly; if they don’t have scope they can’t possibly get over the wild oxers and combinations.
[QUOTE=grayarabpony;7389716]
I knew someone was going to bring up the pathological straight leg as though it is like Valegro’s. [/QUOTE] :rolleyes:
Quite the contrary. I do not believe his hind leg angulation is “pathological straight” at all. Merely less angulated than expected.
His leg looks fine conformationally.
And I agree with this.
Then why bring up the issues with sublaxation of the patella, premature arthritis, and soft tissue injuries with straight legs, hmmm?
:rolleyes: back at you, for your rudeness.
[QUOTE=grayarabpony;7389784]
Then why bring up the issues with sublaxation of the patella, premature arthritis, and soft tissue injuries with straight legs, hmmm?
:rolleyes: back at you, for your rudeness.[/QUOTE]
Uhm, drama queen much? I was merely quoting from the article by Dr. Baird on sport horse conformation, particularly the passage about hindlimb conformation. What you read into it is all yours.
This kind of crap is why COTH can be so annoying at times. You try to have a decent, adult discussion about a topic, and out come the hissy fits. WHATever. :lol:
Hilarious. I was about to say the very same thing about you.
Yeah, reading about all the problems with overly straight hind leg conformation… that’s just me reading something into your quote… right…
I thought this was another relevent opinion on this thread.
You probably will not see Leunus chase a stallion that is used by many for his spectacular movement. “My horses may be called ‘old- fashioned’. They do not have the ‘longer top line and long-legged uphill build’, which is the way the KWPN puts it. But I don’t think that is the way to go for the future of breeding dressage horses. At the top you see very few long-legged horses. They are very often somewhat shorter in the leg and more compact, which makes them struggle less with the more collected work. Look at Totilas, Valegro and Uthopia. All of them horses that don’t have the trendy and more modern type of a dressage horse. That has got to be a sign.”
“Leunus van Lieren”
from this article
http://horsesinternational.com/articles/leunus-van-lieren-dressagehorses-are-made-and-not-just-born/
