Should a TB for sport be a stayer?

And how to know if a horse is a stayer or not?

http://www.pedigreequery.com/septimus2
Champion older stayer in Europe in 2007 and one of the highest rated stayers by Timeform in recent years, 121 at three, 128 at four and 129 at five.

Often people talk about the fact if TB’s used for sport horse breeding should be of the stayer type or not. The above horse was a very good stayer, however looking at his ancestors it is not really clear to me where he got that talent from. A number of people have the opinion that a lot also depends on the trainer of the horse and how good the trainer is in training a horse for the longer distance and that pedigree is only part of the whole picture.
Does this make it even more difficult to pick the right TB’s for breeding or does it really not matter much because other factors are more important?

An other top stayer:
http://www.pedigreequery.com/makybe+diva

I think when people say that routers (distance horses, stayers) should be used for sporthorse breeding over sprinters/North American dirt horses, it’s a “type” thing as opposed to a stamina thing.

Grass-bred routers usually have very different conformation than sprinters. They tend to have that traditional thoroughbred “look” - big, long, lanky, uphill build, ground covering movement. All of those things are a more of a advantage in a 2 mile race on the turf or over hurdles. Sprinters, thanks to the heavy influence of a few sire lines, have become more compact over the decades. Those great sporthorse traits aren’t necessarily an advantage for horses running shorter races on the dirt, therefore you see them less commonly.

As far as determining if you are looking at the pedigree of a horse bred for sprints or routes, dosage is one helpful tool. Here is some information on it:

http://www.chef-de-race.com/dosage/review.htm

Otherwise, you analyze the performances of the individual and the other horses in his pedigree, which is basically what the dosage is, but with a numerical quantification applied.

Septimus has a unique dosage in the sense that his breeding highly favored the “classic” distances around 1 mile, but he also had a lot of dosage points above and below that distance. Being out of a Darshaan mare, I have no doubt he inherited a lot of his stamina from there. It does make me laugh when folks say that North American breeding has “ruined” thoroughbreds in this country because North American lines have become pervasive all around he world. Northern Dancer sons like Sadler’s Wells are the leading sires of he majority of grass horses worldwide these days.

Personally, I think you need to evaluate the horse in front of you. As you said, pedigree is just part of the picture. Also, the ability to run 6f or stay for 12f doesn’t mean squat for jumping ability or dressage ability. It is most important that the horse has the movement and conformation desired. You’re just more likely to find a long history of that “type” of conformation in horses who have been bred for distances on the grass.

As far as muscle fibers are concerned, jumping requires short burst fibers, which are the type of muscle fibers found in sprinters–type 2. Endurance horses like Arabs have preponderance of Type 1 fibers, while sprinting QHs have a preponderance of Type 2 fibers. TBs have more of a type of type muscle fiber that can be converted by training to be like either the endurance fiber or the sprint fiber. That’s why scientific studies in the TB industry have show that training is vastly important to create and maintain speed in the TB.

Now it’s been years since I looked up the science on muscle fibers in horses, and things may have changed since then.

http://www.sport-horse-breeder.com/support-files/breeding.pdf
https://www.google.nl/search?sourceid=navclient&aq=&oq="gem+twist"&hl=nl&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4MERD_nlNL503NL503&q="gem+twist"&gs_l=hp...0l5j41.0.0.2.483902…0.cYm86BNAjmo#q=%22gem+twist%22&hl=nl&tbm=vid
https://www.google.nl/search?sourceid=navclient&aq=&oq="gem+twist"&hl=nl&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4MERD_nlNL503NL503&q="gem+twist"&gs_l=hp...0l5j41.0.0.2.483902…0.cYm86BNAjmo#hl=nl&tbm=vid&q=%22touch+of+class%22+jumping

Domino was a pure sprinter and his line was notable for jumpers; Nasrullah (by Mumtaz Begum) was a sprinter. Roi Herode was a stayer, but his son, The Tetrarch sired Mumtaz Mahal, who was the damline for many, many speed horses, and his son, Tetratema also sired speed horses.

Of course, Lady Josephine, dam of Mumtaz Mahal, produced a dynasty of speed horses. I’ve read somewhere that Lady Juror by the stayer Son-In-Law stayed and was able to produce a classic horse, but the next generation of her descendants reverted to sprinting/milers.

From the TB Heritage article on Mumtaz Mahal

Lady Josephine’s dam was the Fern Hill Stakes winner Americus Girl, by the American sprinter Americus (nee Rey del Caredes). This was a family dominant for sprinting speed, that remained so for generations.
Her sire was Sundridge, a notable sprinter.

There are a couple issues here. Confo and mm type. So, for eventers you need stamina and a more uphill build for the dressage phase. At very least they need to be level and not downhill. The stayer/turf horse is generally associated with this build. The classic TB look. Often your dirt sprinter isn’t just compact ( not the issue) but actually downhill. Think dragster racing in car racing terms. Then there is muscle fiber type. Endurance fiber is long and skinny, sprint is short and fat. Think of what a marathon runner looks like versus an Olympic sprinter. It’s what fibers you ( or the horse) is genetically built with. Training helps, but someone built to sprint will never be a great marathon runner. So again, the bulky QH look may be suitable for a stadium jumper ( bursts) but not an event horse ( cross country). But really the endurance will tell in a jump off situation. Not so much that first round , but if the horse has to go several rounds in a jump off then endurance and fatigue may become a deciding factor.

so here is a “Modern” horse that I would consider compact but not downhill/ of good sporthorse type. He is the damsire of classic runner California Chrome, and his OTTB offspring are in fact doing well as sporthorses.
http://www.northviewstallions.com/index.php/stallions/maryland-sires/not-for-love

Now this is Storm Cat, who is compact AND downhill and tends to throw the downhill a fair amount too.
http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/736x/ba/3e/b1/ba3eb19a1d3246f3466134d2b434a43a.jpg

and Innkeeper, an uphill built horse
http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=photo+stallion+innkeeper&id=CF549F964C285F219A1F2FF3BBEFB3E874DCCEA2&FORM=IQFRBA#view=detail&id=CF549F964C285F219A1F2FF3BBEFB3E874DCCEA2&selectedIndex=0

and a more rangy built “old time” TB ( Pirates Widow at age 22 with her last foal)
http://s82.photobucket.com/user/camohn03/media/Windlass3days.jpg.html?sort=3&o=369

http://www.pedigreequery.com/pirates+widow

probably one of the most influential current jumper sires (in TBs ) is Alydar, especially through his son Easy Goer. EG was on the top of the USEF top jumper sires for a while, as was Alybenbo.
http://www.9thrace.com/images/horses/alydar.jpg
http://www.pedigreequery.com/alydar

some pedigrees of note in modern times
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/reputed+testamony

http://www.pedigreequery.com/sea+accounts

http://www.pedigreequery.com/innkeeper

http://www.octoberhill.com/horses/coconut-grove-2/#.VMO-irA3PIU

http://www.pedigreequery.com/dynaformer

http://www.pedigreequery.com/salute+the+truth

http://www.pedigreequery.com/ap+indy

http://www.pedigreequery.com/danzig

AP Indy and Danzig are turning up a lot in current event horses

Many bash Raise a Native but the desirable and handsome Alydar looked so much like his daddy’s son.

Storm Cat was downhill but his son Stormy Atlantic isn’t.
http://www.bloodhorse.com/stallion-register/stallions/119182/stormy-atlantic

In Reality has been a font of sport types and sprinters despite himself being a solid middle distance horse both on dirt and turf.

Northern Dancer was small and compact but not “sprinterish” in appearance. Speightstown, OTOH, is very high hipped. His confo pic almost seems staged to make him appear less downhill.
http://www.bloodhorse.com/stallion-register/stallions/130764/speightstown

Not For Love (above) is a gorgeous horse. Mid Atlantic sport TB riders have treasured him for years. To me he resembles the Northern Dancer and perhaps moreso, Buckpasser part of his pedigree. (His head is all Buckpasser, IMO)

Last weekend I went to Northview PA and saw the young sire Bandbox, who I think might make a sport sire as well as Jump Start, who already has a sport following.
http://www.bloodhorse.com/stallion-register/stallions/168428/bandbox
http://www.bloodhorse.com/stallion-register/stallions/125302/jump-start
Bandbox’s pics show him fresh off the track and Jump Start has a nasty looking leg resulting from the injury that forced his retirement. JS resembles his sire, AP Indy.
Also there is http://www.bloodhorse.com/stallion-register/stallions/166685/el-padrino who is bred for middle distance, has the compact frame balanced with length of leg. He is stunning. A big horse but light on his feet. Like many Northview PA stallions, he’s pretty new to the “sire” thing. His first foals are due this year. I’d start looking for them for sport in a couple of years.

I can see a number of horses mentioned that look appealing.
Are any of these good showjumpers or are we mostly talking eventing?

Easy Goer and Alybenbo ( both by Alydar) topped the jumper sires list a few years back. Dynaformer is siring chasers.

Linny: I like Raise A Native but… With a qualifier. He is no doubt the most consistent producer of jumper talent. But the leg unsoundness is a problem too. So as a rule I like to see him once in a pedigree but NOT line bred. However, Aldydar has seemed to be an exception to that producing exceptionally sound offspring. I love Not For Love but his 15k stud fee is not for me. Jump Starts son Icabad Crane won Americas Most Wanted, the OTTB retraining contest in 2014. Other than Bandbox I have seen all the Northview stallions on barn tours a couple times. El Padrino has his good and bad points, was not the best match for my mare but he did have The Sexy Walk… Big swinging walk really reaching under himself. Does get the best walk award there! My mare is in foal to Medallist ( Touch Gold/ Star de Naskra) for March. At Northview my top picks other than Medallist were Dance With Ravens ( AP Indy/ Danzig ) as his OTTBs are showing up as eventers locally. Redeemed
( Include/ Pleasant Tap) : Include is a good solid old time horse, I love Pleasant Colony and he isn’t seen that much in race lines anymore… Probably due to their being particularly late to mature … Not a favored trait for racing. The thing I liked most about him is how SOLID he is. While he doesn’t look delicate from the website side shot, it’s seeing him in person from the front that was more impressive: he had BONE on his legs and a massive chest. And I had mixed feelings about Lion Hearted ( Storm Cat/ Alydar). Not a fan of SC as it’s not unusual for him to throw downhill and it is right up front… But his dam sire is Alydar. You never see Alydar up that close any more… And he is on up there in years. If I want to try it and take the risk I better do it soon! Nick wise Medallist and Lion Hearted were A+ nicks for my mare, Redeemed and Dance With Ravens were Ds.

[QUOTE=Texarkana;7972879]

It does make me laugh when folks say that North American breeding has “ruined” thoroughbreds in this country because North American lines have become pervasive all around he world. Northern Dancer sons like Sadler’s Wells are the leading sires of he majority of grass horses worldwide these days.

Personally, I think you need to evaluate the horse in front of you. As you said, pedigree is just part of the picture. Also, the ability to run 6f or stay for 12f doesn’t mean squat for jumping ability or dressage ability. It is most important that the horse has the movement and conformation desired.[/QUOTE]

I agree with much of what Texarkana said.
So often we hear the same comment - about the dearth of sporthorse type TBs in NA, how NA has ruined the TB, how we need ‘stayers and turf horses’ to produce sport horses.
I disagree.
As Texarkana said, Northern Dancer, the horse that in many ways epitomizes the North American race horse and who has had more influence than possibly any modern stallion was himself considered Brilliant/Classic. It was believed when he was racing that he did not have the stamina, was not bred to go a distance.
But of course his influence has dominated TB breeding and racing not just in NA but in Europe. Many of those stayers and turf horses are ND blood.
And many of the most influential TB sires of horses of jumping ability/sport horses were horses like Nasrullah and Bold Ruler… who were considered ‘Brilliant’.
The TB gene pool is a closed book and the ‘type’ of horse - that horse with the conformation and the movement is out there on every track in NA, if you look.
I belong to a FB page that posts many of the great hunters and jumpers of the last century and most of them were TBs… TBs just. like. we have today.

A Fine Romance (for example) is a race-bred TB. His bloodlines and dosage index is weighted for speed. He is inbred 4x4 to Nasrullah and 5x5 to Princequillo. This ‘nick’ was one of the most popular in the that part of the last century. Speed + durability.
www.pedigreequery.com/a+fine+romance
He is a proven sporthorse himself, with an exceptional jump and movement, and he is a proven sire of horses with jump and a great gallop.
In terms of conformation he is built uphill, with a deep hip, and very sound.

Certainly there are different ‘types’ within the TB families, and some have proven themselves to be race better over certain distances - but - my belief is that the difference is not so much the pedigree, but the way in which the horses are trained and raced.
Horses are by definition ‘sprinters’ if they are only raced over 6f.
In NA the expense of racing and the ‘business of racing’ puts emphasis on precociousness, on early speed, on racing and winning at 2.
The pressure on owners and trainers (and the horses!) is to run short.
The races that are written are therefore primarily at shorter distances, primarily on dirt.

Who knows if that big colt could run so much better at 5 over longer distances, on the turf? Chances are he won’t get the chance.

But, again, those individuals are out there, at every race track in NA.

Just some examples of the pedigrees of some of the leading sires worldwide:

Japan’s perennial leading sire, Deep Impact. Possibly the most valuable horse in the world.

Shamardal, a USA-bred, led Britain and Ireland in earnings from offspring in 2014.

The Irish-bred sire Galileo, whose sons have been lighting the world on fire.

England’s top sire, Dubawi.

Leading New Zealand-bred sire O’Reilly, who just recently passed away.

Redoute’s Choice, an Australian-bred who currently tops France’s sire list for earnings in 2014.

Top Australian and worldwide sire Commands, who also recently passed.

Oratorio had the most earnings in 2014 for South Africa.

Many people may remember US-bred Any Given Saturday, who is now Korea’s leading sire.

All of these sires were either successful at 1 mile+ on the turf themselves, or have sired offspring successful as “stayers” on the grass.

Gosh dang, that North American breeding has been terrible for the thoroughbred breed and for producing successful turf routers. :lol:

Camohn, I was impressed with Medallist as well. He was in NY for a time and saw him here. Since I live in upstsate NY, I wasn’t at the Northview open house this week to see the MD crew in person. I’m a huge Dance With Ravens fan. I loved his female family when I was working in racing and know several of his offspring and they are very nice types. My friend bred Ichabad Crane, and I several other friends have Jump Start’s so he’s always been high on my list. Having seen him race at 2 and loving his pedigree, I thought he’d make a nice sport sire too.
I love Include (the people who bred Ichabad have a share in him too) for his “Pleasant Colony, old school type” but that is not a commercial sireline. Breed to race people appreciate him more.

As for the original question: I have spoken to several trainers who have indicated that in many cases, they had horses that looked like stayers, were bred to stay but didn’t have the wind to stay. To look at them you’d assume that they could route and many were pointed toward classics or major grass routes. A perfect example is Midnight Lute. He’s a tall and rangy type sired by Real Quiet who missed the Triple Crown by an inch, with Sea-Bird and Olden Times on the dam side. Baffert thought he should have been a router and originally aimed him toward the classics. The problem was that he ran out of air. Baffert sharpened him up and made him a superstar sprinter in an unlikely physical package. He’s sired some very nice route runners.

Linny: I live 15 min from Northview PA so I can help if you have questions. They were excellent to deal with . I did not go to the open houses. I picked my faves on paper and only went to see them but they pulled other horses out for me to see as well. They said they like showing off their boys and remarkably few mare owners come see the stallions in person: it’s all done on paper.

I think it is so wonderful that in America studs are so hospitable and welcoming to visitors. You would think breeders take advantage of that. Even if I would not be a breeder I would love looking at the stallions :-).

From my Steeplechase experience and perspective. By and large no. Which is contrary to what flat people/trainers think is what we are looking for. We don’t want a horse that “can run all day”. The best seem to be 8 to 10 furlong types. That have some turn of foot in the last 2 furlongs or so. And we don’t care whether they ran on grass or dirt. Most ran on dirt. Have yet to find any horse that has problems/issues going from dirt to turf. Type of turf/going can make a big difference. Be it a Jumps horse or Eventer. I don’t put a lot stock in the school of thought that certain sire lines only produce grass horses. I think this happens because early on they come up with a “talking horse” when switched to grass. Other trainers take note and give one of theirs a try on the grass. And the band wagon starts rolling. American trainers by and large are biased against turf because by far the best races are on dirt. The turf season is short and problematic in most racing jurisdictions. In short IMO they are afraid to run on turf because the horse may not make the transition back to dirt when needed. Just a theory. The opposite happened with the mighty Cigar. Made his first 2 starts on dirt, broke his maiden in the second. His pedigree suggest turf and ran his next 7 starts on turf placing in 2 stakes. Transferred to Mott in the east made 4 starts on turf, placed several times. Tried on dirt which he won. Went undefeated in his next 16 starts, all stakes races.

Because I have made my living by and large as a Bloodstock agent I have studied a lot of pedigrees over the years to say the least. As a steeplechase guy also I have looked at a lot of the pedigrees of the sports best. Mostly Timber because that is what I prefer. I have yet to find anything in any pedigree/bloodlines that seems to “suggest” let alone an argument can be made for so as to breed for, look for. Not even race records by and large. Timber or Hurdle. Of course we all would like to have/see “something” on paper that suggests our efforts will have a higher chance of being rewarded. But in the end I think just about all of us will say “it’s the horse, type of horse”. There have been plenty of top horses over jumps that far exceeded their modest to no race record and from “sprinter” families.

IMO and experience just about all horses can be trained/conditioned to run several miles effectively. Especially Eventers. IMO TBs have inherent ability to “go the distance”. For over 100 plus years this is what they were bred for. IMO and experience the reason most TBs don’t get “the distance” is not because of physical, breeding limitations but far more so because of “mental, emotional” issues. Anxiety, nervousness zaps strength and wind. Human athletes or horse.
But that is not to say a horse that is constantly on it “toes” should be pegged as a “nervous type” and discounted. Plenty of top horses go to the post “breathing fire”. But once the race is underway they “settle in” and go about their business. A lot don’t not even the ones that stroll into the gate pretty as you please. They get “worked up” once the race is under way.

IMO way too many “ammy” riders/buyers, no disrespect intended, discount what might be a really good horse based on their first impression of a horse’s demeanor. Contrary to popular belief a lot of top Sport horses are not easy riders from what I am told by the people who buy, train and ride them. These people are such good riders they make it look easy. To the horse also.

So, that’s the long of it IMO. In short, a pedigree is nice to look at and “hold”. I put no stock in dosage numbers by and large. In the end as it has been said a number of times. It’s all about the “type” the horse in front of you and between your legs. And just as much if not more in the rider/trainer’s ability.

Camohn, my GPS took me home via some crazy route through Lancaster last weekend. I was thrilled to be able to visit NV PA since I was only in the area for about 48 hours and wanted to escape before last Sunday’s storm. They were very hospitable.

I’m not a breeder, but worked in racing for years and still do some pedigree analysis etc. I agree that you can see so much more looking at the horses. Let’s face it, pics can be deceiving and nowadays more so using photo shop etc. This loast weekend was a big one for open houses at the farms near me in NY. I usually enjoy going, even if just to get together with the local racing/breeding faithful etc.

gumtree, you forget that in Europe the best chasers come from chaser families. Their recipe is to put miler type speed on top of NH female families. They’ve been doing it for horse generations. IMO, milers usually make the best stallions, as they will produce both short runners and routers. Maybe this is due to many of them being C/T or T/C for the speed gene and its SINE insertion, but who really knows. What we do know is the the SINE insertion 227 is only widely spread in the TB and QH and does affect propensity for distances.

Wasn’t Touch of Class bred to be a chaser? Fwiw Ginny Leng’s Master Craftsman was a chaser.

Since Secretariat people have been trying to breed stayers that have sprinter speed. There are advantages to both types of horse in sport, and most TBs have the attributes of both sprinters and stayers these day anyway.