Should a TB for sport be a stayer?

[vineyridge]

fannie mae, you assert that no jumps racing TB has ever left a legacy of jumping in WBs. I think this is incorrect. Cottage Son’s damsire, Cottage, was the sire of three Aintree Grand National winners. But apparently, he didn’t have much of a racing career.
http://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/great-stallions/?gs=12623

There are others. But most chasers are end products in the UK/Ireland. They are gelded, since the breeders don’t breed to chasers. It’s different in France. http://www.tbheritage.com/TurfHallmarks/racecharts/Steeplechase/FrenchChasing.html

A horse called Tourist ran on the flat in England, then was imported to the US where he won the Grand National here twice. According to TB Heritage,

Mostly sound and very sturdy, he ran for eight seasons, six of them over fences, and as a stallion got a number of good steeplechasers, including some top timber horses, his best probably the U.S. steeplechase champion Trough Hill. His daughters bred a number of long-running handicappers, good steeplechasers, and even a gold-medal winning Olympic event horse.

He was, BTW, a Son-In-Law son. He was the damsire of BallyCor. She was used for sport horse breeding after her Olympic win.

But maybe you don’t consider eventing a jumping competition.

And the suggestion that Dynaformer is a speed horse is ludicrous. He (and his sire Roberto) have been stamina influences in the US and abroad. Dynaformer was probably the best chasing sire in America for years.

Hurdlers, steeplechasers, and timber horses are very different IMO.

[Linny]

Since about 95% of 'chasers in the US are geldings, it isn’t typical for them to leave a legacy.

Here in the US, TB’s are not bred for steeplechase/hurdling/timber. Some 'chasing owners have flat racing operations that funnel horses into their jumps programs. Others keep an eye out (or have agents like gumtree watch for) horses that look to have jumping potential in their flat career.

The timber horse has to have the best jump and his jump will be much closer to what a sport based jumper has. He cannot just skim the fence, he has to rock back and jump up.

[jadebe]

[QUOTE=gumtree;7979670]
I don’t dismiss this “science” nor the theories behind it and have more than a basic understanding of it. Unfortunately it will be very expensive to “prove out”. Unless the researchers are willing to put up their money and time or find a TB “benefactor”. Personally I think it will be near impossible to “prove out” because there are just WAY too many variables from the time a horse is born until until it gets in the gate. In some ways the same as cloning.

I’ve seen it said time and again, “Michael Jordon’s mother had 9 kids but only one Michael”.

Do you know some of the names of the “industry old times”? I know or know of most that have any credibility. In my eyes at least. I ask out of interest not to be snarky.[/QUOTE]
I’d say it’s already proven out. Genome-wide association studies using chips that read tens of thousands of variables throughout the equine genome have identified genomic profiles strongly associated with specifc racing class, distances, and other factors. Is the ‘right genetic stuff’ an ironclad guarantee of success? Of course not. A favorable genetic (and/or cardio, and/or biomechanical) profile just means a better chance at success when the multitude of environmental factors you mention are also generally favorable.

Yes, I do know the names of some industry old-timers that were at the symposia and I’m personally acquainted with a couple of them that have enough credibility to have spent many years as mating specialists at major TB farms.

[Elles]

http://www.sporthorse-data.com/dbtestmating.php?&sireid=10451822&damid=10580198
http://www.horsetelex.nl/horses/progeny/190804
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10580198
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10451826

Could someone please say anything informative about the above?

[vineyridge]

Don’t know if it’s informative, but Costume traces to a US TB (non-GSB) mare family, not a UK one. She has the short speed lines from Meade’s Celer and other early American Running horse lines. She also has several lines to Croucher, a Colonial mare from the Spanish Caribbean who is not in the GSB. On top, she has another longtime American line in Rhoda B, who also has several non-GSB lines, including Croucher. In fact, she’s got a good bit of Croucher comparatively through at least two Croucher line daughters. She’s also got Janus ( a QH founder) and Messenger (Standardbred founder). There’s even a line to Hunting Squirrel, another Spanish horse from the 1700s. The Hunting Squirrel daughter in the pedigree is by Janus.

Rum Moss is interesting in that regard because his tail female traces back to Lady Josephine, who also has an American bred sire with quite a few of the Early American Running Horse lines in the back. As does Nearco. And Golden Boss tail males to Orby, son of Rhoda B. All of these horses have lines to Croucher and the founders of QHs. FWIW, the Gold Bridge line is noted for having produced jumping TBs.

Edited to correct error pointed out below.

I personally suspect that the speed gene complex was introduced to Europe from the United States and these two non-GSB mares may have been the source.

[Elles]

Vineyridge that is very informative, thank you very much!
In a way it is a bit funny as sport horse people can be very negative with regard to QH’s because of their speed and speedy conformation.

[vineyridge]

I should also point that the Germans had an infusion of Early American Running Horse genes through Graf Ferry who was out an American dam.

[Linny]

Stock type QH’s don’t have the physical characteristics of a jumping horse suitable for higher levels. OTOH, like the TB the QH breed spans a wide continuum of types. Those used for racing are often largely TB and have a very different appearance from the ones that are sorting and roping and doing real ranch work.

[jadebe]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;7982865]
Don’t know if it’s informative, but Costume traces to a US TB (non-GSB) mare family, not a UK one. She has the short speed lines from Meade’s Celer and other early American Running horse lines. She also has several lines to Croucher, a Colonial mare from the Spanish Caribbean who is not in the GSB. On top, she has another longtime American line in Rhoda B, who also has several non-GSB lines, including Croucher. In fact, she’s got a good bit of Croucher comparatively through at least two Croucher line daughters. She’s also got Janus ( a QH founder) and Messenger (Standardbred founder). There’s even a line to Hunting Squirrel, another Spanish horse from the 1700s. The Hunting Squirrel daughter in the pedigree is by Janus.

Rum Moss is interesting in that regard because his tail female traces back to Lady Josephine, who also has an American bred dam with quite a few of the Early American Running Horse lines in the back. As does Nearco. And Golden Boss tail males to Orby, son of Rhoda B. All of these horses have lines to Croucher and the founders of QHs. FWIW, the Gold Bridge line is noted for having produced jumping TBs.

I personally suspect that the speed gene complex was introduced to Europe from the United States and these two non-GSB mares may have been the source.[/QUOTE]

Viney, Lady Josephine’s dam, Americus Girl, was foaled in GB or IRE, probably the latter. It was AG’s sire, the California-bred Americus, that was sent to the UK. Iirc, Croker sent both Americus & Rhoda B. to England at same time

There are multiple variants within the myostatin (MSTN) complex on equine chrom. 18. What’s commonly referred to as the “speed gene” is just one of those. It was initially reported to be the variant most strongly associated with specific aptitudes but those early reports didn’t segregate for presence or absence of the SINE insertion, another variant within the MSTN complex, which more recent reports demonstrate is a better predictor of aptitude.

The derived ‘C’ variant at the “speed gene” locus and nearby SINE insertion both represent mutations, though separate ones, in the wild type MSTN complex. The mutation that produced the ‘C’ variant occurred long ago, probably before domestication. It’s almost certainly been introduced into the TB by at least two different sources, at least one of them at the foundation stage.

The mutation that dropped the SINE insertion onto ECA18 is far more recent and, apart from the TB, thus far known to occur only in breeds/types of recent origin in the Americas. It quite possibly was introduced to the old world TB by one bred in the new world.

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=Linny;7983032]
Stock type QH’s don’t have the physical characteristics of a jumping horse suitable for higher levels. OTOH, like the TB the QH breed spans a wide continuum of types. Those used for racing are often largely TB and have a very different appearance from the ones that are sorting and roping and doing real ranch work.[/QUOTE]

Not to mention that a lot of good reining horses are actually uphill, at least in the way in which they move (which is what counts).

[vineyridge]

My mistake–I forgot about Palotta. She’s one whose MtDNA doesn’t match the rest of 9-c. It was Americus who introduced a touch of the Early American Running Horse genes into Lady Josephine.

The Early American Running Horse was being developed at the same time as the GB Thoroughbred from many of the same founder lines but with additions.

I think if I were choosing a strain of QH to breed for jumping I’d look to roper bred myself.

[jadebe]

@vineyridge;7983168

My mistake–I forgot about Palotta. She’s one whose MtDNA doesn’t match the rest of 9-c. It was Americus who introduced a touch of the Early American Running Horse genes into Lady Josephine.

Palotta’s descendants have the same mtDNA haplotype that’s been found in all other members of family 9-c that have been sampled. This includes descendants of all active branches of the 9-c taproot who’s recorded as a Mare by Crab out of a Sister to Sloven by Bay Bolton. The same haplotype found in 9-c has also been found in some samples from 9-b, the taproot of which is recorded as a half-sister (by Sweepstakes) to the 9-c tap. The trunk of family 9 and branches 9-a, 9-e, and 9-f have another, completely different haplotype.

Most plausibly, the dam of the 9-b and 9-c taps was misrecorded in family 9 and there’s been at least one mis-recording in the descendancy of the 9-b tap.

I think if I were choosing a strain of QH to breed for jumping I’d look to roper bred myself.

My roots are in show jumping but the in-law’s family business is cattle ranching so I’ve acquired some familiarity with working cow ponies (mostly QH’s) too. Ironically (maybe), lack of stamina is a complaint I’m hearing with increasing frequency from professional cowboys, especially the older ones. Whether gathering, cutting, or roping they’re ‘out of horse’ hours before they think they should be or they would have been 20 or so years ago.

Just ime & imo, the suitability of a horse for jumping is more dependent on the qualities of the individual than breed, breeding, or previous training.

[vineyridge]

Lady Josephine’s branch of 9-c was found to be different in the 2002 study that started the whole “history of the TB” industry.

From TB Heritage:

300 Year Old Mysteries

One deep-rooted anomaly occurs far back in family no. 9, which traces back to the Vintner mare, who probably dates to the 1670s and was, in the words of a later racehorse breeder, “the best bred as well as the best runner of her day in the North.” Her breeding was unknown until the 1920s, when C. M. Prior discovered a note regarding her pedigree in the 18th century stud book of Cuthbert Routh, which records the Vintner mare as a daughter of the Curwen Arabian. Her granddaughter, a mare by (Old) Spot, c. 1690, produced six recorded foals in the GSB,all probably born in the first decade of the 18th century, including three daughters, all by the Curwen Bay Barb.

Family 9 Pedigree Tree
Family 9 Pedigree Tree, derived from “History and Integrity of Thoroughbred Dam Lines Revealed in Equine and MtDNA Variation,” Animal Genetics 33: 287-294. ©Blackwell Publishing.
The Hill study found that four of the ten horses sampled from family 9 had a common ancestor in the sturdy race mare Maid of Masham, an 1845 daughter of Don John. She traces back to the Curwen Bay Barb daughter commonly called “Sister to Mixbury number one.” These four horses all carry haplotype “A,” a unique variant in all the horses tested in the study. Their descendants include such horses as Cyllene, *Star Shoot, his son Sir Barton, Bold Forbes, Bull Lea, Tom Rolfe, and Ack Ack.

Six horses tested in family 9 had a different haplotype labeled “G.” They all trace back to an unnamed mare by Bay Bolton, born in 1728, often referred to as Sister to Sloven. The GSB shows this mare to be a daughter of another unnamed Curwen Bay Barb mare, commonly called Sister to Mixbury number two. Somewhere, between the founder line that leads down to the 1845 Maid of Masham and the line that leads to the unnamed 1728 Bay Bolton mare, a mis-recording of the dam line occurred, and researchers believe it was probably earlier, rather than later in the line. Because the “G” haplotype was also found in family 12 (a Royal Mare), it appears that many, if not all of the Bay Bolton mare’s progeny, formerly thought to be part of family 9, share the same founding mare as those tested in family 12 instead.

Horses carrying this anomalous “G” variant from family 9 include all horses descending from that extremely influential early 20th century mare, Mumtaz Mahal (1921), known as “the Flying Filly,” and considered one of the fastest two-year-olds of all time. That would include such familiar names as Nasrullah and his full sister Rivaz (1943); Royal Charger; Abernant; Mahmoud; Risen Star; and Shergar.

These “G” variant horses, the Hill study shows, derive from the same founding mare as the three tested in family 12, a Royal Mare, whose pedigrees were traced back as far as a 1723 mare by Greyhound, who, according to the GSB, was a daughter of a mare by the Curwen Bay Barb. Three extremely significant stallions, and many more influential horses, descend from the family 12 founding mare, and thus probably carry the “G” haplotype: they are Eclipse (1764), Lexington (1850), and Commando (1898). Because questions have been raised by historians regarding Eclipse’s dam line, and because Lexington’s dam line was considered so ill-documented by the GSB at the turn of the 20th century that he and all but a few of his descendants were barred from entry in the GSBin 1913, additional testing of more horses descending from family 12 will be of great