Should I add oil for weight gain, and if so, which one is best?

[candyappy]

[QUOTE=Chestnut_Mare;8858780]

BM said I can bring her into the paddock at night and feed tonnes of hay. Super happy about that.[/QUOTE]

Glad to hear that! That not only is the sensible solution it is the best for her health. Loading them up on mass amounts of other feed can really cause problems.

I acquired an older TB brood mare who was at least 150 pounds underweight. I fixed her dental issues. She got all the hay she wanted and worked up to a couple pounds of Strategy. In a couple months my vet didn’t recognize her

[Cindy_Galloway]

[QUOTE=sascha;8864859]
Hahaha. Please explain this to my current mare and to every other horse I’ve had on a high fat diet. Once their bodies figure it out it’s one of the easiest ways to adjust the horse’s caloric intake when necessary. Need fewer calories during good pasture times? Cut the oil way back. Need more calories in the winter? Increase the oil.

I have fed oils before, that was before I really started researching how a horse should eat.
Nature calls for sick and injured animals to be picked off by predators. Shall we turn our horses loose in the wilderness when sick or injured because that’s what “nature calls for not man”?[/QUOTE]

I have fed oils before, that was before I really started researching how a horse should eat. Horses do not assimilate oil as they do carbohydrates as in proper forage. It’s a simple concept, you can use your route, I’ll stay with mine.

What in the sam hay does this discussion regarding forage and weight gain have to do with the obvious state of nature culling the herd? With all of the artificial supplements/people food/medicines etc. given to horses which usually result in the vet calls up the wahoo mother nature would certainly be culling the heard. I like a natural approach, you know…the one where horses have been around for millennia and didn’t stop at the local ‘oil’ trot through for a weight gain shot. Your opinion seems as ridiculous to me as mine did to you - be nicer. You can feed as you wish, I gave my opinion which is my perspective.

[Dani]

[QUOTE=Cindy Galloway;8865011]
With all of the artificial supplements/people food/medicines etc. given to horses which usually result in the vet calls up the wahoo mother nature would certainly be culling the heard. I like a natural approach, you know…the one where horses have been around for millennia.[/QUOTE]

Horses have been around for a long time, however, the ones that we have now are not the ones that were in the wild. They have been domesticated, natural selection has been effectively halted to allow for us to selectively breed. Just as dogs are not wolves and shouldn’t be treated as such, horses are no longer wild horses and things have changed for them. There’s a happy medium in there somewhere, things that didn’t work for wild horses may work for the modern horse…

[Cindy_Galloway]

[QUOTE=Dani;8865049]
Horses have been around for a long time, however, the ones that we have now are not the ones that were in the wild. They have been domesticated, natural selection has been effectively halted to allow for us to selectively breed. Just as dogs are not wolves and shouldn’t be treated as such, horses are no longer wild horses and things have changed for them. There’s a happy medium in there somewhere, things that didn’t work for wild horses may work for the modern horse…[/QUOTE]

Horses have NOT been domesticated, they allow us to be apart of their herd - not one physical change has happened except selective breeding for foot size etc. Not one gene alteration has happened. Man is anthropomorphic, we think things need comfort and food at our level. Just like with dogs - a typical store bought cat food has corn in it. Yikes - cats are true strict carnivores - they don’t assimilate anything but animal properly. Dogs don’t eat corn, they are omnivores but just like a bear.

We love to spoil our horses, I do mine but I just don’t do it with nutritional intake.

The wild horse is no different than the stabled horse. Except they don’t have luxurious bubble baths and other human fun things to do with them.

[JB]

@Cindy Galloway;8864826

Horses do not assimilate oil properly as humans do, it is not a good source of weight gain. You need to feed carbohydrates to a horse to properly gain weight. Alfalfa cubes are a great way to supplement for added carbs to gain weight. Stick to what nature calls for not man.[/QUOTE]
Define “properly”

Just because they don’t have a gall bladder doesn’t mean they can’t and don’t digest oil and use it efficiently for energy. Studies have proven they do. Many, MANY horses with EPSM/PSSM have been studied and have done extremely well on diets with quite a lot of oil. That’s because the body CAN use oil for energy.

This also therefore means that because it’s digested, at roughly 4000 cal/lb, it is definitely a source of extra, usable calories, and that means weight gain.

Nature would cull the PSSM horse who ended up eating his own muscles and tying up when the herd ran for whatever reason. PSSM is (probably) a new, domestic mutation, therefore it’s something we, man, have to address, and that is with added fats along with reduced carbs, and for many PSSM horses, that’s in the form of oil.

[QUOTE=Cindy Galloway;8865011]I have fed oils before, that was before I really started researching how a horse should eat. Horses do not assimilate oil as they do carbohydrates as in proper forage. It’s a simple concept, you can use your route, I’ll stay with mine.

Peer-reviewed studies say otherwise Of course they don’t assimilate oil (fat) as they do carbs - they are different nutrients. That is not the same as not being able to use them, and they most definitely can.

What in the sam hay does this discussion regarding forage and weight gain have to do with the obvious state of nature culling the herd? With all of the artificial supplements/people food/medicines etc. given to horses which usually result in the vet calls up the wahoo mother nature would certainly be culling the heard. I like a natural approach, you know…the one where horses have been around for millennia and didn’t stop at the local ‘oil’ trot through for a weight gain shot. Your opinion seems as ridiculous to me as mine did to you - be nicer. You can feed as you wish, I gave my opinion which is my perspective.

Feral horses who have/had EPSM would be culled naturally. I don’t know that the “original” feral horses have EPSM, but I’d bet a good bit that some modern herds do thanks to the “escape” of domestic QH’s and draft/draft crosses. But even then, those horses are not asked to work, and in heterozygous forms, most of those horses can probably live long lives in the wild despite their disease, as their environment is not such that it usually brings symptoms into play, especially not on a regular basis.

@Dani;8865049

Horses have been around for a long time, however, the ones that we have now are not the ones that were in the wild. They have been domesticated, natural selection has been effectively halted to allow for us to selectively breed. Just as dogs are not wolves and shouldn’t be treated as such, horses are no longer wild horses and things have changed for them. There’s a happy medium in there somewhere, things that didn’t work for wild horses may work for the modern horse…

Domesticated horses are still the same as feral horses. Nothing about their physiology or psychology has changed. They still have the same general requirements of movement and near-constant forage. Feral horses founder just like domestic horses do. They get colic and diseases too. There isn’t a single thing about intervening with their breeding that changes how they are supposed to be managed, from a biological perspective.

The only thing that’s changed is that we know a lot more about how to manage nutrients as it relates to age, size, and work load, to give them the best health we can, but we didn’t cause that change in them, we just know how to handle the demands.

[bugsynskeeter]

Taking away oil from a PSSM horse would be detrimental.

OP - look into ExcelEq or UltraCruz Equine Weight Gain.

[Twisting]

[QUOTE=Cindy Galloway;8865055]
Horses have NOT been domesticated, they allow us to be apart of their herd - not one physical change has happened except selective breeding for foot size etc. Not one gene alteration has happened. Man is anthropomorphic, we think things need comfort and food at our level. Just like with dogs - a typical store bought cat food has corn in it. Yikes - cats are true strict carnivores - they don’t assimilate anything but animal properly. Dogs don’t eat corn, they are omnivores but just like a bear.

We love to spoil our horses, I do mine but I just don’t do it with nutritional intake.

The wild horse is no different than the stabled horse. Except they don’t have luxurious bubble baths and other human fun things to do with them.[/QUOTE]

Yes, horses have been domesticated. The definition of domestication is a sustained multi-generational relationship in which one group of organisms assumes a significant degree of influence over the reproduction and care of another group to secure a more predictable supply of resources from that second group. Genes don’t have to change, but they do, and they have in horses. We bred them to be more docile than their wild ancestors, so that they were more easily handled. We bred them for specific uses, such as draft work, or carrying a human.

Lots of gene alterations have happened. Just look at the wide range of colors we have. Wild horses come in one color variant. All the other color variants came about because these animals are domesticated. Genetic diseases. HYPP, HERDA, Frame, all gene changes not found in wild horses. Gaited horses possess gene changes not found in wild horses. Oh, and mustangs? Not wild animals, they are feral domesticated animals. As evidenced by the fact that you can take an adult mustang out of the wild and turn it into a working animal. Something you can’t do with a true wild animal, one that hasn’t been bred for generations for a temperament conducive to handling by humans.

Horses don’t just let us be part of their herd because they are special magical creatures. They interact with us because we have spent generations breeding them for a pliable temperament. Culling the ones that chose not to let us “be part of the herd”.

[vali]

I’ll echo Ultium and then I’d also put her on alfalfa when you bring her in at night. It’s a little pricey but I also like the pure flax oil from Santa Cruz Animal Health, it’s very palatable. You could also try Renew Gold if they sell it in your area, or rice bran pellets mixed with the flax.

[ladyj79]

[QUOTE=Cindy Galloway;8865055]
Horses have NOT been domesticated, they allow us to be apart of their herd.[/QUOTE]

…oh, boy.

[2horseygirls]

Dr. Beth Valentine is one of the leading experts on EPSM/PSSM, and the author of “The Draft Horse Owner’s Manual” (drafts are famous for having EPSM). Many of her articles may be found on Rural Heritage.com – just search EPSM on the site.

She discusses many angles of feeding a higher fat diet, and has some excellent recommendations on additional sources of fat.

For my Percheron, it really has been all about the quality of hay. I moved him to a new barn 8/28. He has been reduced from 8# Ultium Competition daily to 4#, with 1/2# Amplify added to it. However, the free choice timothy/clover/grass mix hay has really made a world of difference. He has already gained maybe 30# . . .

[Simkie]

[QUOTE=Cindy Galloway;8865055]
The wild horse is no different than the stabled horse. Except they don’t have luxurious bubble baths and other human fun things to do with them.[/QUOTE]

Uh, aren’t the only WILD horses left the Przewalski horses??? They are quite different than our domesticated horses, down to the genetic level.

[Bogie]

My OTTB is a hard keeper. He gets as much grass hay as I can stuff into him, 6 quarts of TC Senior/day (Ultium made him hotter than a rocket), 1 cup of whole flax, and 2 quarts of alfalfa pellets.

Occasionally I’ll add some Cocasoya oil or Purina Amplify, which is a high-fat nugget and much less messy than oil.

Some horses find rice bran very palatable. When I’ve had picky eaters I’ll add that both for more calories and to get them to finish their meals.

Beet pulp is easily digestible but fairly low in calories. Some barns won’t feed it because it’s messy.

[JB]

@Twisting;8865157

Lots of gene alterations have happened. Just look at the wide range of colors we have. Wild horses come in one color variant. All the other color variants came about because these animals are domesticated. Genetic diseases. HYPP, HERDA, Frame, all gene changes not found in wild horses. Gaited horses possess gene changes not found in wild horses. Oh, and mustangs? Not wild animals, they are feral domesticated animals. As evidenced by the fact that you can take an adult mustang out of the wild and turn it into a working animal. Something you can’t do with a true wild animal, one that hasn’t been bred for generations for a temperament conducive to handling by humans.

Genetic changes for disease, color, gaiting, white patterns, etc, were not caused by domesticating them. They just happened sooner, rather than later, because of more breeding as a result of domestication.

[Chestnut_Mare1]

If you look past all the disagreements on CoTH, you can sure learn a lot!

All of the brand name products mentioned so far are not available in my area, these are the two mills I can buy from:

https://www.hiprofeeds.com/products/ca
http://ottercoop.com/index.php?id=127

So what do you all think, should I invest in some alfalfa hay and add a few flakes per day to the grass hay, or buy a bag of rice bran?

[JB]

Step Right Step 8 HiFat is a pretty decent feed actually. I don’t know anything about Otter Co-op feeds.

[danacat]

I use a product called Weight Check Oil - Natural Vet site. It’s cold-pressed, contains no hydrogenated or processed fats and is GMO free. My horses love it.

[J-Lu]

[QUOTE=Chestnut_Mare;8858624]
This is a spin-off from my other post about my more losing weight.

Mare has lost 70 lbs in 3 weeks at a new barn. She is on pasture getting local hay. I am working with the BM to sort out that part, but in the meantime I’m desperately trying to figure out what I can add to her ONCE DAILY bucket to help her gain weight.

Right now she is getting:

• 10 lbs alfalfa cubes (soaked weight)
• 1 lb matrix fat smart complete feed (will keep increasing amount slowly up to 4 lbs)
• 1 cup flax seed
• mineral/vit & joint supplements

She hated the oils I tried to add in the past: canola, corn and olive. Would coconut oil do any good?[/QUOTE]

Is there ANY WAY they can feed her twice daily?

One lb Matrix fat smart complete is not enough and is fed WELL under the label recommendations. They say not to feed more than 5 lbs in one feeding, and it looks like your horse needs WAY more than 1 lb/day! Your horse needs calories!!! Also, is this really a complete feed? I would call the manufacturer and find out.

It seems like your new pasture isn’t well managed/isn’t healthy and the local hay is very poor if your horse lost 70 lbs in 3 weeks. If I were you, I’d look into the pasture and hay quality.

Next, I would purchase quality compressed timothy and/or compressed alfalfa bales and I’d ask the BO to throw quality hay to your horse during that ONE feeding. Or, get some quality hay bales delivered to, again, be fed once daily to your horse.

If the BO can’t comply, I’d move barns. Your horse’s weight loss is not acceptable and is a huge red flag to me.

[J-Lu]

[QUOTE=Cindy Galloway;8865055]
Horses have NOT been domesticated, they allow us to be apart of their herd - not one physical change has happened except selective breeding for foot size etc. Not one gene alteration has happened. Man is anthropomorphic, we think things need comfort and food at our level. Just like with dogs - a typical store bought cat food has corn in it. Yikes - cats are true strict carnivores - they don’t assimilate anything but animal properly. Dogs don’t eat corn, they are omnivores but just like a bear.

We love to spoil our horses, I do mine but I just don’t do it with nutritional intake.

The wild horse is no different than the stabled horse. Except they don’t have luxurious bubble baths and other human fun things to do with them.[/QUOTE]

I disagree. Since Eohippus, horses have been domesticated. The “wild” horses on the planet are better termed “feral”. With the exception of perhaps Mongolian horses, the VAST majority of horses stem from feral if not more domestic breeding. NOTHING is changed in equine digestion. I think any equine or animal geneticist will argue with the idea that “there is not one genetic difference” between true wild horses (extinct from North America since the ice age and currently manifesting as Przewalski’s horse) and domestic horses. The forage and range of North American wild horses is currently not the same as the ecology that their ancestors developed on. North American “wild horses” are of European decent.

Omnivores can eat corn diets. Hence dog food. Cats are carnivores but house-bound cats thrive on typical diets. Of note, cats aren’t native species and decimate our true native species when allowed outdoors.

[JB]

[QUOTE=J-Lu;8867309]
Omnivores can eat corn diets. Hence dog food. Cats are carnivores but house-bound cats thrive on typical diets. Of note, cats aren’t native species and decimate our true native species when allowed outdoors.[/QUOTE]

Omnivores can definitely eat corn, but it’s not digested very well, and that’s the issue. Edible isn’t automatically digestible

Cats are obligate carnivores. They don’t have the ability to truly digest vegetable matter. They can eat it, sure, just not digest it, which makes it filler material. So many commercial foods have a lot of vegetable matter in them, even “good” vegetables like peas, instead of corn. Grain-free is definitely better than grain-filled foods, but when the “grain free” is just vegetables instead of grains, it’s not a great deal better - still too high in carbs.

Dogs aren’t obligate carnivores, so they are true omnivores. But they still need a high % of meat in their diets, and most commercial foods have far too much filler stuff like wheat and corn products.

[froglander]

Can you add some alfalfa hay into the hay she gets overnight when she’s now by herself? I had better luck with adding alfalfa than rice bran when the mare I used to have was looking thin. I didn’t know any better at the time so I think she was also getting 4lbs a day of Purina Strategy and a multi-vitamin or something. But it was the alfalfa that I think helped the most.