Should the USDF dispense with Amateur/Pro Status?

[Equibrit]

Sections within each level of competition

Each level of competition e.g. Preliminary, Novice etc. is divided into three sections; Bronze, Silver and Gold. The section which a member may enter is determined by the horse, rider and combination experience and points won at each level of competition. Each level will run as one class with all riders being judged by the same judge. At the end of the class, for results and qualification purposes, the class will be divided in to the different sections.

Ӣ Bronze sections are for less experienced horses and riders who have just started competing at a given level so that they can compete against those with a similar ability.

Ӣ Silver sections are designed for those combinations that show more ability at a level and have demonstrated that they are no longer a beginner at that level.

Ӣ Gold sections are open to all but are designed for riders who have gained experience at higher levels and are riding a horse with less experience, or for combinations who have demonstrated that they are competent at a level.

[SillyHorse]

@Toblersmom

Being surrounded by Western stuff here in Texas, I have a crazy idea that there ought to be something to be gleaned from the barrel racing system. As I (imperfectly) understand it, everybody runs the same course and gets a time (score). Brackets are set based on the highest time (score). There are four brackets, regardless of if 20 horses ran or if 40 horses ran. first is the fastest, second is 0.5 to 1 s off, third is 1-2 sec off, 4 is more than 2 sec off that fastest time. Each is considered a division, and the top five horses in each division get prizes/payouts. So the kids and the ammies with their backyard heart horses and lousy setups have SOME chance coming home with a ribbon. Have some reachable goals to shoot for (placing within their division and moving up into the next). Have a reason to come back and compete again and earn points and maybe come home with a year end award if they keep at it and do the best they can with what they have. I’m sure there’s problems with the system, any system has its problems, but it really seems to help spread the joy and give people a reason to turn in entries and show up, who have no prayer of ever, in a million years, cracking the Top Ten of even an “amateur” competition.

This works for barrel racing because the competition is against the clock. I don’t see how it can work for a discipline like dressage that is subjectively judged.

[lenapesadie]

I think having additional classes beyond amateur / pro could be a big draw for the sport. Especially at the lower levels. At the few local shows the majority of entries are competing a second level or lower. Dividing these entries up into smaller classes would likely encourage participation. Most people like ribbons, so offering more opportunities to win a ribbon might very well encourage more people to show.

I like the idea of divisions based on show experience

[mmeqcenter]

Just a small annoyance of mine, but there aren’t typically Pro classes. There’s Amateur classes, and Open classes. Anyone can show in Open classes, including those registered as Amateurs. Pros just can’t show in Amateur classes.

[Toblersmom]

@SillyHorse

This works for barrel racing because the competition is against the clock. I don’t see how it can work for a discipline like dressage that is subjectively judged.

in theory, it’s semi-objective, as the judges are trained to score in the same way, and the score is a calculated numeric value. The “brackets” could also be be formed based on some kind of “curve” based on analysis of the typical scores of each level in the previous year (or something), rather than a hard and fast “x” point increment. Just thinking off the top of my head, really. Wouldn’t work for hunters unless there’s some numeric valuation behind the scenes of their judging I’ve never heard of, but some variation of the concept could be applied to dressage.

[pluvinel]

Perhaps dressage can take a lesson from car racing.

You don’t have the Austin Mini’s competing against Porsche’s. They run the same courses, but the classes are divided based on performance (of the car).

Maybe the car is the analog of the horse. As in horses are not allowed to compete below 1 level lower than their highest level.

[friendlyhands]

Here are some musings from NZ rider Jody Hartsone, dreaming of a post Covid-19 future for dressage in her country:

There are now categories within each grade based on a rider’s grade point average (GPA) … Those who are scoring on average below 63% are in the bronze division and only compete against horses and riders who are capable of scoring the same. Silver is for those fairing a little better and scoring up to 65% and there is a Gold Division for those riders with the experience / horsepower to be scoring over 65%. (These percentages may vary in different grades)

Equestrian Entries lets show secretaries know the GPA of all competitors up to date as to the start of the show… Thankfully ESNZ’s data base has had an overhaul and now functions in a way any database should…. And there is now an app on every rider’s phone which allows them immediate access to their results, and most importantly to their average percentage for each test within their grade and an overall grade point average for their level. You can see how your percentages are tracking for Novice Test 2.2, as well as overall in the Novice Grade.

The word “pot hunter” is a thing of the past – we call that BC – Before Covid - and nobody now feels that “dressage is so unfair”. There are rich people and poor people, large and little people, those on schoolmasters and those on ponies and they all compete against each other within their divisions, all vying for a slice of the prizemoney…

Oh, hang on – Covid 19 – the economy…. There is actually no prizemoney except for the National Championships and Horse of the Year Show. Regular shows had to decrease entry fees to increase participation and make shows more affordable, but as a consequence the prizemoney for those lucky enough to get it has been scrapped.

Instead a new system has taken over… Within each division there are awards for riders who are doing well at training and presenting their horses…

As an example – within the bronze division (remembering your GPA is less than 63% - all horses scoring over 58% get a ribbon / award for Achieved, all horses over 60% get a Merit and those over 63% get an Excellence as they work their way up towards the silver division.

Everyone is happy and encouraging as riders strive to be the best they can be given their physical, mental and financial constraints… The horses are happy as their riders are less concerned about placings and more concerned about progressing their horses suppleness and rideability.

The barriers to participation have gone – it costs less to enter, more riders are rewarded, there is a feeling of fair and even competition amongst each and every sub-group of rider. The spirit of the sport seems to have changed - people are excited for each other and an encouraging and friendly scent fills the air.

And for those with lofty Olympic Dreams, nothing really has changed – they just keep training their horses up to International level and the cream still rises to the top.

And we all lived happily ever after….

[mmeqcenter]

@pluvinel

Perhaps dressage can take a lesson from car racing.

You don’t have the Austin Mini’s competing against Porsche’s. They run the same courses, but the classes are divided based on performance (of the car).

Maybe the car is the analog of the horse. As in horses are not allowed to compete below 1 level lower than their highest level.

So a beginner rider who is leasing or buys a, say 4th level schoolmaster stepping down, they would not be able to show until they’re ready (as a rider) to show 3rd level?

[Manni01]

@mmeqcenter

So a beginner rider who is leasing or buys a, say 4th level schoolmaster stepping down, they would not be able to show until they’re ready (as a rider) to show 3rd level?

I personally don’t care, but wouldn’t that be nice… it would level out the playgrounds…

[Texel]

Haven’t read through all the posts so I apologize if I’m just reiterating other people’s ideas.

I think keeping an amateur/open division would work if and only if there are more exemptions for what counts as amateur, in terms of both straight up changing some of the rules, and perhaps weighting it by preponderance of total wages. I mean, is the teacher who gives up/down lessons on her pony on the weekends really a professional?

And, as I’ve mentioned before, if the sport is going to transition more into “not every horse is for dressage” than “dressage is for every horse,” then there needs to be some sort of handicapping. I proposed back in the thread on affordability creating different classes modeled after how firearms competitions are divided. I believe someone else in that thread had a similar proposal based off of how car racing is divided.

In line with that, there needs to be more energy poured into celebrating achievement at all levels. I think the AQHA has done a great job of creating that kind of culture, and we should look to their model to see how they’ve pulled that off. Without creating that kind of culture, any attempt at creating alternative pathways to success in dressage would collapse.

[mmeqcenter]

@Manni01

I personally don’t care, but wouldn’t that be nice… it would level out the playgrounds…

I think that’s absurd. How many times do people cry that green rider + green horse = black and blue? How many times has it been suggested for a beginner rider or even first time horse owner that is a somewhat experienced rider to buy an experienced horse for their first horse? So, people shouldn’t be allowed to show unless they’re what, several years deep in lessons and are now on a horse they’re training themselves? Please. :rolleyes:

[Toblersmom]

@pluvinel

Perhaps dressage can take a lesson from car racing.

You don’t have the Austin Mini’s competing against Porsche’s. They run the same courses, but the classes are divided based on performance (of the car).

Maybe the car is the analog of the horse. As in horses are not allowed to compete below 1 level lower than their highest level.

But cars don’t have the potential need for a step-down retirement. As it stands, the older horse who no longer has the flexibility or stamina to train and compete at the level they did in their glory days still has substantial market value to somebody looking for a schoolmaster at lower levels. If they aren’t allowed to compete at lower levels, I guess they could be some kind of “lesson horse”, but most dressage barns aren’t set up to make a string of “lesson horses” financially viable, particularly at mid to high levels. Most people serious enough to take lessons at mid to high levels are likely to have committed to ownership or leasing, and wanting to compete. So, horses that have made it to higher levels but can’t compete at that level anymore, and aren’t allowed to compete at lower levels, would suffer a significant drop in financial value unless they can successfully transition to another discipline. Much as we like to have a warm fuzzy feeling about the place of horses in our lives, we all know that horses that have low financial value are at significant risk for getting passed along and eventually winding up neglected or dead.

[Cowgirl]

I also think there should be a rule that a person cannot have a pro riding their horses at a show unless the person has a medical dispensation for it. The person should strive to ride an appropriate horse and at the level they are mastering. This doesn’t stop someone from going back and forth at a show so that their pro can ride their horse, but it makes it way more difficult.

[lorilu]

@Cowgirl

I also think there should be a rule that a person cannot have a pro riding their horses at a show unless the person has a medical dispensation for it. The person should strive to ride an appropriate horse and at the level they are mastering. This doesn’t stop someone from going back and forth at a show so that their pro can ride their horse, but it makes it way more difficult.

Regionals have that rule,as well as all horses must be stabled on site.

[conniemary]

@mmeqcenter

So a beginner rider who is leasing or buys a, say 4th level schoolmaster stepping down, they would not be able to show until they’re ready (as a rider) to show 3rd level?

NZ has a system of grading horses like this, but you can apply to have the horse “downgraded” for a new rider.

[conniemary]

@Equibrit

Each level of competition e.g. Preliminary, Novice etc. is divided into three sections; Bronze, Silver and Gold. The section which a member may enter is determined by the horse, rider and combination experience and points won at each level of competition. Each level will run as one class with all riders being judged by the same judge. At the end of the class, for results and qualification purposes, the class will be divided in to the different sections.

Just curious, would your competitions have enough competitors to support dividing each level into three groups?

I have attended comps where lower levels were divided into two sections based on the rider’s previous competition experience/accomplishments. That seemed to work - it effectively puts higher level riders bringing through young horses in one group, and in the other group you have riders who are working up through the levels for the first time.

[BrokenArrow]

This is the Australian rule for Adult Amateur.

4.6.1 Amateur Owner Rider (AOR) Amateur Owner Rider (AOR) is a division of Official Competitive riders. All amateur owner riders must meet the following criteria:

a) the rider must be a Competitive member of their state branch of Equestrian Australia

b) the rider must not have competed in a FEI Sanctioned CDI (PSG- GP) or CDI-W in the prior 3 calendar years

c) the horse must have a life registration with Equestrian Australia

d) the horse/pony registration lodged with Equestrian Australia must reflect the name of the amateur owner rider as owner or part-owner of the horse. Leased horses are eligible if the amateur owner rider competitor is reflected as the lessee on the EA horse registration of that horse

e) the rider’s principle source of income must not be obtained from sponsorship, breeding, breaking, training, riding and/or coaching any horse or rider for the previous 2 years

f) the horse/pony must be primarily ridden and trained by the rider/owner with only periodic ridden assistance by person(s) other than the owner

g) the rider must be aged 21 and over – can enter in the calendar year in which they turn 21

h) the division is for Official Competitive competitions. The Organising Committees may run this division at any level (ideally at all levels Preliminary - GP) and it can be run either within the competition or separately

i) Organising Committees must designate the AOR on the draw if there is a separate competition conducted within the one competition

j) for a State/Regional/Club Leader Board it would be ideal to select several events at which scores will count towards the annual Leader Board

k) if the OC receives evidence that the rider is in breach of these rules then this rider will forfeit any awards and prizes

This year they took out the must not have competed at CDI’s or been on a Squad requirement as they felt that AA shouldn’t be punished for being achievers. The part about being the main source of income has changed as well as it used to be you couldn’t earn over $500 from teaching, riding or sponsorship. The part about the set income really helped people like me who teach the occasional lesson and do the occasional schooling, but work for my main source of income elsewhere.

While not offered at every show, these classes were heavily supported at every show they’re held at. Yes, you still have your people riding nice horses with good coaches, that is never going to change. There’s always going to be people who have more time, money and horsepower than you. But it really encouraged a lot of other people to be out there and feel like they have a chance. At State Champs the held an AA only division and those classes were packed all the way to FEI. People loved being able to go to a big show like that and not have to compete against the names.

It’s taken a few years to get off the ground and a few rule changes along the way. Is it perfect? Probably not. But it’s a good step in the right direction.

[AnastasiaBeaverhousen]

Thank you for posting BrokenArrow, I was hoping someone from another country would post.

[Equibrit]

@conniemary

Just curious, would your competitions have enough competitors to support dividing each level into three groups?

The divisions are only used for the purpose of placing the class. If CDJ rides in a novice (for horse) class as the only Gold rider, then she places first in that division. There may be an amateur riding in the same novice class who is qualified to silver. She scores better than any other silver competitor, so she wins the silver division. Everybody rides in the same class in order of draw.

Novice eligibility page #73
https://www.britishdressage.co.uk/me…pages-2020.pdf

All down to ability - no earnings involved.

[MysticOakRanch]

@Cowgirl

I also think there should be a rule that a person cannot have a pro riding their horses at a show unless the person has a medical dispensation for it. The person should strive to ride an appropriate horse and at the level they are mastering. This doesn’t stop someone from going back and forth at a show so that their pro can ride their horse, but it makes it way more difficult.

I kind of agree - at this point, only Championship shows have that restriction. However… I’ve seen enough riders get in trouble at a show - they’re nice steady horse gets fired up at the first show of the year (as an example), and the trainer needs to get on to “iron things out”. If the rules said the the rider can’t get mounted assistance from their trainer, then they might have to scratch - and that means it costs even MORE to show… So I have mixed feelings on that thought. Part of me says YES, 100% YES! I see too many people watch their trainer warm up their horse, then they just go in and ride the test… But I’ve also seen the rider who genuinely needs that little bit of assistance (sometimes they even get bucked off).

And you are right - I’ve seen people at CHAMPIONSHIPS, where they had their trainer warm up the horse nearby, then drive in to the show, where they hop on and compete. That is probably why they changed the rule, and the horse must be stabled on the grounds now (which just adds to the expense of championship shows for those of us close enough to haul back and forth:no:).

The problem is - for all the people who follow the rules, there is always at least 1 or 2 that find a way to get around the rules:mad: