Should the USDF dispense with Amateur/Pro Status?

[MudMagnet]

My friend and I joke that the division should be the price of the horse, over and under 10k 😂

[Zevida]

@Janet

Me personally?
I think it is an anachronism.
It was originally designed to protect wealthy clients from having to compete against their employees/trainers.

When I was a junior, the only people competing as Amateurs were

• college students over 18 but still supported by their parents
• housewives whose husbands supported their horse habit

it was never intended for people who worked for a living.

It would make far more sense to split classes (in ALL disciplines) by the highest level you have competed within N years.

Horse, Rider, and Open divisions just like eventing would be my preference.

[Manni01]

@BrokenArrow

This is the Australian rule for Adult Amateur.

4.6.1 Amateur Owner Rider (AOR) Amateur Owner Rider (AOR) is a division of Official Competitive riders. All amateur owner riders must meet the following criteria:

a) the rider must be a Competitive member of their state branch of Equestrian Australia

b) the rider must not have competed in a FEI Sanctioned CDI (PSG- GP) or CDI-W in the prior 3 calendar years

c) the horse must have a life registration with Equestrian Australia

d) the horse/pony registration lodged with Equestrian Australia must reflect the name of the amateur owner rider as owner or part-owner of the horse. Leased horses are eligible if the amateur owner rider competitor is reflected as the lessee on the EA horse registration of that horse

e) the rider’s principle source of income must not be obtained from sponsorship, breeding, breaking, training, riding and/or coaching any horse or rider for the previous 2 years

f) the horse/pony must be primarily ridden and trained by the rider/owner with only periodic ridden assistance by person(s) other than the owner

g) the rider must be aged 21 and over – can enter in the calendar year in which they turn 21

h) the division is for Official Competitive competitions. The Organising Committees may run this division at any level (ideally at all levels Preliminary - GP) and it can be run either within the competition or separately

i) Organising Committees must designate the AOR on the draw if there is a separate competition conducted within the one competition

j) for a State/Regional/Club Leader Board it would be ideal to select several events at which scores will count towards the annual Leader Board

k) if the OC receives evidence that the rider is in breach of these rules then this rider will forfeit any awards and prizes

This year they took out the must not have competed at CDI’s or been on a Squad requirement as they felt that AA shouldn’t be punished for being achievers. The part about being the main source of income has changed as well as it used to be you couldn’t earn over $500 from teaching, riding or sponsorship. The part about the set income really helped people like me who teach the occasional lesson and do the occasional schooling, but work for my main source of income elsewhere.

While not offered at every show, these classes were heavily supported at every show they’re held at. Yes, you still have your people riding nice horses with good coaches, that is never going to change. There’s always going to be people who have more time, money and horsepower than you. But it really encouraged a lot of other people to be out there and feel like they have a chance. At State Champs the held an AA only division and those classes were packed all the way to FEI. People loved being able to go to a big show like that and not have to compete against the names.

It’s taken a few years to get off the ground and a few rule changes along the way. Is it perfect? Probably not. But it’s a good step in the right direction.

I like the paragraph where it says the riders principle income must not be obtained from riding and s sponsorship and so on… that makes sense… it does not make sense that you are a pro if you earn a few hundred bucks with it additionally…

[xQHDQ]

What about having Starter-Horse and Starter-Rider divisions?

The pros can show at the lower levels in the Starter-Horse division and novice riders won’t be pitted against experienced amateurs in the Starter-Rider division.

[soloudinhere]

@chantal

If someone is competing in Wellington, why shouldn’t they have to ride against everyone? Show organizers may get more entries and $$ if they separate classes as people may not be intimidated, but is it about the placing or the riding experience? Not saying either is right, just 2 different considerations.

You do ride against everyone, but the ribbons are split pro/am at the national shows in Wellington.

That said I think people have an impression that Wellington is full of the cream of the crop who are always on their game and it’s not true. The pros have their CDI horses, but there’s still people getting 59s at Training level there, too.

[lorilu]

@MudMagnet

My friend and I joke that the division should be the price of the horse, over and under 10k 😂

when? as an unbroken 2yo? Or a 7 yo OTTB? Or a trained horse already competing (however successfully)?

[Manni01]

@soloudinhere

You do ride against everyone, but the ribbons are split pro/am at the national shows in Wellington.

That said I think people have an impression that Wellington is full of the cream of the crop who are always on their game and it’s not true. The pros have their CDI horses, but there’s still people getting 59s at Training level there, too.

But my impression is that it is much easier to get ribbons in your class if you perform during winter in the AA classes…Many times you are the only one…

[soloudinhere]

@Manni01

But my impression is that it is much easier to get ribbons in your class if you perform during winter in the AA classes…Many times you are the only one…

Entries were down this winter, but I rode in many of these classes before the shows were cancelled and they are not amateur specific except for the CDI-Am (which is different criteria anyway). They split the ribbons.

There were 27 in the PSG on Friday at the last White Fences show I went to, 8 were amateurs. The same week, 15 showed in the PSG at Global. The classes aren’t small.

Ironically the lower levels are more lightly attended there.

[Manni01]

@soloudinhere

Entries were down this winter, but I rode in many of these classes before the shows were cancelled and they are not amateur specific except for the CDI-Am (which is different criteria anyway). They split the ribbons.

There were 27 in the PSG on Friday at the last White Fences show I went to, 8 were amateurs. The same week, 15 showed in the PSG at Global. The classes aren’t small.

Ironically the lower levels are more lightly attended there.

Well maybe I was looking at the CDI-Am… one. Rider 2 horses… I think PSG and. 4th level. At the National show

[soloudinhere]

@Manni01

Well maybe I was looking at the CDI-Am… one. Rider 2 horses… I think PSG and. 4th level. At the National show

There were 15 who went down centerline in the #10 National PSG. I was there.

The CDI-Am has never been popular. There’s no reason to do it when the national show runs concurrent and has all the FEI tests.

[gailbyrd]

@soloudinhere

The CDI-Am has never been popular. There’s no reason to do it when the national show runs concurrent and has all the FEI tests.

The last 2 years they’ve run it at Dressage at Devon.

[Manni01]

Global Dressage Festival 7 National Competition… I would like to see the huge classes there… 4th level, I 1 and PSG were one rider…

[soloudinhere]

@gailbyrd

The last 2 years they’ve run it at Dressage at Devon.

I was speaking to Wellington, where it never really has any entries.

Global Dressage Festival 7 National Competition… I would like to see the huge classes there… 4th level, I 1 and PSG were one rider…

As for GDF7, I’m not sure what day you’re looking at, but the Saturday I1 had 5, the Saturday PSG had 11. The Thursday classes almost never fill.

[Manni01]

@Silverbridge

None of those classes had only one rider. You are wrong.

Here are screen shots of the PSG entries from Friday, Saturday, and Sunday from Global Dressage Festival 7, National Competition.

18 on Friday, 15 on Saturday, 5 on Sunday and there were also 5 on Thursday but I had trouble with that photo. Friday and Saturday are nearly always the biggest classes at four day shows when the same class is offered each day.

My fault. sorry you are right!!

So I guess it proves me wrong, the AA open division works perfectly because there are huge classes everywhere… And the ones who cannot afford it don’t deserve it anyhow because they would probably try to compete with non warmbloods…(being sarcastic)

P.S. I personally don’t care one bit about any of the rules or regulations… I can make it work for me because I am lucky enough to have enough money (ok, not enough to spend it on showing 2 horses in rated shows twice a month…) to reach my goals… I simply participated in this discussion because I can…

[SillyHorse]

@Manni01

My fault. sorry you are right!!

So I guess it proves me wrong, the AA open division works perfectly because there are huge classes everywhere… And the ones who cannot afford it don’t deserve it anyhow because they would probably try to compete with non warmbloods…(being sarcastic)

Seriously, what kind of point are you trying to make? People show you that you are mistaken, and you react with sarcasm and spite.

[Manni01]

@SillyHorse

Seriously, what kind of point are you trying to make? People show you that you are mistaken, and you react with sarcasm and spite.

well usually I am under the impression that people (not everybody) are trying to prove that I am wrong no matter what…

My post was not addressed towards Silverbridge, because he is usually very correct in his arguments…

I still think you could tweak the US system to make it more enjoyable for everybody to show…
But now poster who identify themselves as “rich AAs” are offended because they think criticism is directed towards them, and everybody tries to prove my arguments are not valid.

I believe if people want any hope to make showing more affordable (which I believe is possible) there needs to be an effort from every Dressage rider… From the Pros and all Types of AAs… Wealthy and not so wealthy… It is not helpful to single anybody out or to create sanctuaries for any particular group.
Everybody is equal in his desire to ride better dressage!!!
And yes not everybody has millions to spend for showing… I think to spend 3 to 4 tsd Dollar every month for showing is something not everybody can do on top of everything else… Maybe I am wrong… I do have a nice amount of money to live on, but I would like it to last until I die…

[lorilu]

@Manni01

well usually I am under the impression that people (not everybody) are trying to prove that I am wrong no matter what…

Because you often are?

My post was not addressed towards Silverbridge, because he is usually very correct in his arguments…

I still think you could tweak the US system to make it more enjoyable for everybody to show…
But now poster who identify themselves as “rich AAs” are offended because they think criticism is directed towards them, and everybody tries to prove my arguments are not valid.

You have been picking on “rich AAs” right along, and this is not the only thread… for example, the AA division was created to “protect” “rich AAs” from the Pros… and along the way, you are managing to criticize many of us AAs who show AT ALL - however regularly, however we can afford it, however many side gigs we have to support it… if we show Recognized, especially if we are successful with a WB or a non-traditional horse (because that means you either bought a finished horse and/or you can afford regular lessons… so you are “rich”) we are somehow “rich” and we are the problem. And you are surprised that someone is annoyed by that???

I believe if people want any hope to make showing more affordable (which I believe is possible) there needs to be an effort from every Dressage rider… From the Pros and all Types of AAs… Wealthy and not so wealthy… It is not helpful to single anybody out or to create sanctuaries for any particular group.

Yet you continue to single out the Rich AA… I have asked you for specific ideas to make it more affordable… and, aside from some incorrect info (prize money “cannot” be won by AAs, etc…) all I have is crickets - and Sanctuary? How the hell is showing in front of the same judge a “sanctuary”? Because we might win a $1 ribbon?

Everybody is equal in his desire to ride better dressage!!!
And yes not everybody has millions to spend for showing… I think to spend 3 to 4 tsd Dollar every month for showing is something not everybody can do on top of everything else… Maybe I am wrong… I do have a nice amount of money to live on, but I would like it to last until I die…

And to this point, showing at even one show a month (few folks I know do that unless they are pros supported by their clients) does not approach $4K. I just filled out an entry, two one day shows, including two days of fees, and stall, and it was under $500. I would be camping in my gooseneck (and it is certainly not a living quarters). Of course those who choose to live and show in Welly or other meccas are of a different sort - just like the H/J riders who follow the HITS circuit.

[BWP]

@conniemary

Just curious, would your competitions have enough competitors to support dividing each level into three groups?

At a lot of regular BD shows, no not really. My most local venue will have a handful combined across the 3 sections at prelim and novice, and perhaps a couple at ele/med (we don’t tend to go higher than that apart from one 2 day show each autumn). It means you give out plenty of rosettes (you run through the reds pretty quick) but prize money is overall so the highest %age from across the 3 sections (bronze, silver and gold) will get the money.

It does well to allow people to work towards appropriate championships though, with having the Area Festivals as well as the regional/national champs. Area festivals only for bronze and silver sections and regionals/nationals for silver and gold. It is fairly complicated and is reasonably recent; it used to be restricted and open sections.

Im a national level steward and do both areas and regionals/nationals (just missed my annual Easter trip winter nationals thanks to covid). Both are true championships and very competitive in their own right.

[soloudinhere]

Actually, I show in Wellington specifically because it’s so inexpensive. Because it’s a short jaunt down the road, you can show off the trailer, it takes less than two hours to pop over, show a test or two, and get home. It costs me $65 per test, plus $50 office fee and $23 USEF and $10 to email in my entry. It’s really very inexpensive and you can go 4 days of any given week.

The board down here is crazy but it’s one of the cheapest ways to show I’ve encountered in my career.

[SBrentnall]

I completely disagree about combining the divisions, unless there’s some kind of Bronze/Silver/Gold system as mentioned previously.

I’m an amateur, and here in Southern CA, that means I DON’T have to ride against Olympic riders like Steffen Peters and Hilda Gurney.

Sure, the judging standard is supposed to be the same, but I actually appreciate having a chance to measure myself against other amateurs. If I just wanted to get a judge’s comments on a test sheet, I could ride in any number of “ride a test” clinics.

I show because I’m competitive and I’d like a chance to win. But there is pretty much zero chance of that happening in a class with Jan Ebeling and Guenther Seidel.