A few years ago USEA and the USEF Eventing committee approved a rule change proposal saying that anyone who made less than $x (I think it was $3,500, but I could be wrong) from teaching, training, riding,etc. could compete as an Amateur in Eventing.
But it was shut down by USEF (who is the one that has to enforce the rules) on the grounds that USEF can not access rider’s bank accounts or tax returns, so could not enforce the rule.
From a enforcement position, it is easier to prove that someone is/is not being paid for riding, training,etc. than to prove HOW MUCH they are being paid
Part of this makes no sense: How is a housewife whose husband supports horse habit different from a single person who works 50+ hours a week to support their horse habit?
I wouldn’t argue against some changes in the Amateur definition to allow people to make some additional $ in the horse world, but dont vilify those of us who worked for 40 years in the corporate world to support our one/maybe two horses and are now over 60 and finally able to focus on riding.
I could make an argument that I shouldn’t have to put my aging body up against 30 year olds - and maybe that will come about. Most every major sport (and some minor ones) including some our sister associations under USEF split by age or have senior divisions at competitions.
I have a trainer. He rides my horse when I’m out of town on business. He will occasionally otherwise do part of a ride to feel what I’m feeling. That’s it.
Its getting a little old in these mulitple threads that seem to indicate the whole problem is amateurs who somehow have $$. We shouldn’t spend it on a nicer horse. We should spend it on sponsorships that allow other amateurs to show for less $. We should perhaps just disappear.
Fair point but, considering how many “Amateurs” there are that aren’t actually Amateurs these days, it apparently isn’t actually all that easy to simply prove yes or no on receiving payment, either. In practice, I don’t see that a dollar amount would be that much harder to enforce. You sign up as an Amateur on an honor system. Someone has to report that you are not, with proof, just like today, just with an added requirement of proving the dollar amount. This can be shown with invoices, proof that a gift was given that is valued over the dollar amount, etc.
It all gets a bit invasive when there are $ limits and earning rules, etc. I guess they have to operate from the perspective that rules will always be broken and abused. So, they try to make it so cut and dried, instead, and they even include in-kind labor, and catch riding if its compensated in trade, in determining ammie status.
Personally I wish they could relax some of the amateur status requirements as far as being able to sponsor, or to gift, another adult amateur. Like for example-- there’s a young woman in our group, just out of nursing school with crazy student loan debt who has a super nice young horse that she got a hell of a deal on. I have no show season at all due to injury. She can show about once in the Spring and once in the Fall, budget wise. Just enough to qualify for State Champs, which can be at one show whereas Regionals would need to be two shows. (if COVID weren’t a favor this year).
So anyway it would be nice if I, or someone else who sponsors a pro now and again, and who helps the shows themselves by sponsoring classes and arenas, could ALSO just put the entry for another adult rider through, on our dime. I mean we can now, of course. BUT we have to be super hush hush about it, because it’s technically a violation unless the rider is a pro or a Junior.
It would be nice if they would loosen it up, for a situation like that. Some kind of “Gift Clause.” You’d have more people showing in that situation, too. I realize it’s not an all over “fix” to make showing more affordable to AAs across the board. But on a case-by-case basis, it does get one more entry in the appropriate AA class who couldn’t otherwise afford to compete.
But USEF would probably also see gifting as ripe for abuse. People could start soliciting for private individuals to help them get to this show or that show. And it would go from an occasional assistance to a full sponsorship and others would see it as unfair.
So anyway it would be nice if I, or someone else who sponsors a pro now and again, and who helps the shows themselves by sponsoring classes and arenas, could ALSO just put the entry for another adult rider through, on our dime. I mean we can now, of course. BUT we have to be super hush hush about it, because it’s technically a violation unless the rider is a pro or a Junior.
That particular rule against paying the entry for an amateur, GR1306.3.j ONLY applies to hunters and jumpers, NOT dressage.
Entries for non-under saddle classes in amateur sections at hunter, jumper or hunter/jumper competitions,
must be paid either (i) directly to the competition by the Amateur or by the Amateur’s family or (ii) by someone
whom the Amateur or the Amateur’s family reimburses within 90 days of the last day of the competition for
which entries were paid.
It is what it is, and I try to keep the “you’re only competing against your last score” mindset… but I’m considered a pro. Anyone who’s seen me ride knows no one would pay me to do it :lol:.
I’m a full time public school teacher and I give lessons to some of my teacher friend’s kids (on my personal horses at my house). I don’t make a profit but I register as a pro because it’s the right thing to do.
It was nice at BLMs when I was only going against other people who hadn’t done more than 3rd level. Those are my “peeps”
So, only for in-hand classes it’s restricted? But in the ridden rounds, an amateur can be sponsored or can have their entries paid by someone else, as a gift? Interesting! I wonder why.
ETA: I don’t see how it’s allowed for dressage shows, when a professional’s remuneration is defined this way under USEF rules, 1306:
Remuneration. Remuneration is defined as compensation or payment in any form such as cash, goods, sponsor- ships, discounts or services; reimbursement of any expenses; trade or in-kind exchange of goods or services such as board or training.
Gifting entry fees is a sponsorship.
I admit I’ve only been showing about six years but I have asked before and I understood all along that another individual paying for an amateur’s entry fee would knock them into the professional/open category, and jeopardize their AA status.
this system encourages envy and mistrust between riders… I have shown in countries where the difference is not made and nobody cared how much money somebody made with giving lessons or being sponsored by somebody…
No one I know would be envious or mistrustful of someone, say, lunging a friend’s horse on occasion when they’re traveling for work and making $70 a month from it while still showing Amateur. But you do you.
Speaking as a person with that horse, the solution is that your first show or two of the year are schooling shows. They’re cheaper and if you need to scratch because Pookems doesn’t settle even after your trainer’s had their go, well, you aren’t losing THAT much money.
oh so you do this??? be careful… In this discussion board are people who were reported by other riders… And it sounded ugly… I would not take any risks ever to break rules… But good for you if your surrounding is forgiving…
You don’t know the difference between those two? Seriously?
Hint -it’s time. A house wife with a supportive husband can get her butt to the barn every day, ride multiple horses if she wants and has them available, take lessons during “non-peak” hours, and basically spend as much time & effort as she has dedication for to perfect her sport.
The working girl is stuck riding around work hours, trying to get a lesson in time slots all the other working girls are trying for and still has to maintain her home around the work & hobby.
Everyone knows this sport takes time & dedication & money. Both women can have the same amount of dedication & money available but the one with the time is the one that will progress.
Your local ammy DQs must be a better class of people than the ones in my region. I know of two people who were forced to go pro due to taking money for “little” things. One lost her AM status for teaching horse handling skills on the ground for 4 weeks one summer at the local kid’s camp. 2 hours a day, twice a week, minimum wage but she was helping out her friend who owned the camp. Someone took a screen shot of the camp’s web site and, when asked, she was truthful in that she was paid for it. But she was decent rider and was getting decent scores and it put the noses of some of the local “big name” AMs out of joint that she was beating them. So now she’s riding against the pros because she taught kids how to pick a hoof and walk a horse safely for less than 20 hours 2 years ago.
As I said earlier, I show Open. Good try, though. And my example was in reference to changing the rule to allowing a small amount of income from horse endeavors for Amateurs. Which is what you said would breed envy and mistrust. 🙄
As the rules currently stand, she should have “gone pro” for that, or helped her friend out for free to stay an Amateur. That’s just how it is. I’m pretty sure she can apply for Amateur status again if she hasn’t accepted money for the last two years.
My example scenario was in reference to the idea of changing the Amateur rule to allow Amateurs to accept a small amount of income/remuneration each year and still maintain Amateur status.
Your example also included “lunging a friend’s horse on occasion when they’re traveling for work and making $70 a month from it while still showing Amateur”, which by the current rules should also make someone go pro. You said you didn’t know anyone would be envious or mistrustful of that person enough to force them into the pro category. Well, they’re in my region.
I meant it as an example of something that could be allowed if the rule was changed.
I never said envious enough “to force them into the pro category.”
Backing up here:
In response to someone stating that the USEF considered changing the rule to allowing Amateurs to receive compensation up to a certain dollar amount, which was not approved due to concerns of how to prove that, I made a post that said proving an amount of income would not be much harder than proving that any income was received at all.
Manni responded saying that such a system encourages envy and mistrust between riders.
I gave a scenario of something that such a system might permit, saying I don’t know anyone petty enough to be envious or mistrustful of that person in that scenario, which was intended to mean if the rule were changed and it was permitted.. I apologize it was not more clear.
Yes, whenever these discussions come up I think BLMs could be a good model. It has nothing to do with how people earn money, it is a pretty bright-line rule, and all you’d need to place people in divisions is access to show records. Even though it wouldn’t benefit me personally as an amateur who’s competed GP, I think it’s fair.
For those who aren’t familiar, this is from last year’s prize list:
Training Level and the First Level Finals for senior riders will consist of two divisions: a) riders who have not competed at or above Third Level at an USEF licensed show, and b) riders who have competed at or above Third Level at an USEF licensed show.
Second through Third Levels for senior riders will consist of two divisions: a) riders who have not competed at or above the FEI Prix St. Georges level or in any of the FEI Young Rider levels at an USEF licensed show, and b) riders who have competed at or above the FEI Prix St. Georges level or in any of the FEI Young Rider levels at an USEF licensed show.
Fourth Level for senior riders will consist of two divisions: a) riders who have not competed at or above the FEI Intermediate I at an USEF licensed show, and b) riders who have competed at or above the FEI Intermediate I at an USEF licensed show.
Prix St Georges for senior riders will consist of two divisions: a) riders who have not competed at or above the FEI Intermediate II and/or B at an USEF licensed show, and b) riders who have competed at or above the FEI Intermediate II and/or B at an USEF licensed show.
