Hi everyone, I’m sooooooo appreciative of the responses to my question about horse purchasing (no updates yet but will post when I have news) - but can I ask this brilliant hive mind for some advice about understanding how to ask for (and maintain!) shoulder-in? I have only been riding as an adult for 10 months, never learned proper dressage when I was a kid, and I’m trying to understand what my seat, legs and reins are “supposed to be” doing 
I know I need to use my outside rein to counter balance my horse but as soon as I do that he straightens out! I feel like I’m leaning on my inside rein to get the initial bend and then I don’t know how to lighten up on that inside rein without having him go straight. I understand the concept of turning my core in, but I really don’t have a good understanding of where my legs should be in relation to the girth - I get that I’m supposed to be trying to bend him around my inside leg and push his shoulders in, but my brain is melting trying to understand how to ask for this! My trainer is amazing but it feels like asking him for two opposing things at the same time, and I feel like I am just not getting it!!! Any help would be really appreciated!
I will offer my 2cents worth. Feel free to hit delete and ignore. So here goes…
People overthink the shoulder-in. It is NOT difficult, so don’t over stress here. So, starting with a horse on a proper 10m circle at the walk…let’s say at the centerline at X. Ask the horse to spiral out to the long side. When you hit the long side, keep the same bend as in the circle, just ask the horse to travel down the long side.
Sit in the direction of the motion (to the direction of travel, eg, the outside) and ask the horse to follow your seat.
Use your reins to ask for bend. You should see the orb of the eye, but don’t hold the horse in the position. Just suggest that the horse establish bend.
Let me know if this is useful.
Start by thinking about the reason behind the shoulder in - to drive the inside hind leg closer to the horses center of gravity, so that it bends the joints more in that leg and helps to begin engagement/collection. Shoulder in is seen from second level all the way into Intermediare. You are in good company not confident in the aids for it - I see it all the time in the ring.
As pluvinel said above, try riding a 10 meter circle. Let the shoulders begin a second circle, and then change your mind and go down the track. Your weight should be to the bend, though.
How do you ride a circle? Your inside leg is for supporting bend, your outside leg guards the haunches from swinging out, the outside rein tells the horse how much bend he is allowed and the inside rein just encourages relaxation of the inside jaw.
Your inside leg is at the girth. Your outside leg is behind the girth. Say you are going right - this is the same leg position you would have for right half pass, right renvers, right pirouette. The only difference is the direction of leg pressure and intensity.
Next, going down the long side, dont allow the haunches to swing out. This permits the inside hind leg (the whole purpose of this thing) to cross through the center of gravity and not bend the joints. Dont hang on the inside rein. That stops the inside hind from stepping forward. If your horse straightens too much, then the problem is your circling aids! Can you circle without the inside rein and maintain the bend??
Is that clear as mud?
There are 2 different philosophies on whether one sits to the inside or the outside. Every French instructor coming out of the Cadre Noir says to sit to the outside to ask the horse to follow the motion.
I can tell you that an Olympic level eventer who trained under the “German method” was told to sit to the inside. She struggled with Shoulder In. Then she sat to the outside and the movement got easier.
So…as is with all things COTH, ask a question and get 10,000 opinions. I am with the opinion to sit to the outside of the bend and have success with this approach.
@dotneko is a dressage judge, so just take these as 2 opinions in the world of COTH.
If I recall, Gustav Steinbrecht had one of the better discussions on shoulder-in in his book Gymnasium of the Horse. I will look up my book and post later. Stay tuned.
Agree to disagree - more than one way to Rome and all that. I was taught weight always to the bending leg to develop more carrying power. And switching from shoulder in to half pass only requires a change in leg pressure and no weight shift.
But lets not derail the ops question with more technical discussion.
While I agree to not confuse OP, the way I was taught has one sitting to the inside of the bend for half-pass. So sit to the outside for shoulder-in…and sit to the inside for half-pass.
I would love to have these discussions with an actual horse, not a keyboard.
As a visual learner, maybe this has something to offer to others like me who need pictures.
You’ve shown third level and are in full training on a PSG horse with GP aspirations. I’m wondering if it might be time to try out lessons with someone else or do an approved clinic to see if a different teaching style clicks. The ability to have feel for weighting aids and timing along with clicking with a trainers communication style gets increasingly important. If your trainer isn’t picking up that some of the fundamentals aren’t intuitive but is letting you ride the tricks and show above your skill level it can build muscle memory that’s really hard to undo. A trainer can be very talented but not the best fit for a rider without a certain skillset. Sometimes it’s so intuitive to them that they don’t have a good vocabulary for explaining if it doesn’t click with their go to explanation.
Sounds like you’re trying to set it up with your hands and not your seat and leg. You should be able to move your horses shoulders in and out with the front of your seat.
So, first do lots of spirals on a circle so your horse listens to your outside hip aid to bring the shoulder in and then you can push the inside shoulder out off the inside hip and when you squish them together or “stand them up in the outside rein” you’re ready to play with shoulder in.
Do a small circle first, then as you start/corner before bring the outside shoulder in then add a little inside hip leg push inside shoulder just a smidgen out for your bend - then you’re set up - then hips go straight down the long side with weight outside. Don’t twist shoulders or reins.
Your hands don’t do anything if your horses is on your seat.
I would recommended you looking into the RideIQ app. They have many different coaches and each explain it slightly differently. I have found one coaches directions are very very helpful for some movements whereas another is helpful for others. The monthly fee is less than a lesson and there are soooo many helpful things within the app and facebook group.
There are 20+ lessons on shoulder in or includes shoulder in in the app right now.
Another approach…. Do you leg yield with the horse? It is really a very helpful movement if you do it during your warm up walk phase. You can play around with it with the head against the rails or with the butt against the rail. Once you get confident with leg yield, shoulder in will become easier…. Good luck!!! But I do agree with @pluvinel
I struggled with the shoulder in for a long time too, and I was a party that was overthinking it.
Something clicked for me when an instructor put a tiny orange cone 10m off the wall, and told me to circle to the inside of it, at the trot, then carry that bend all the way down the long side. Just doing that a few times really helped me define and establish my aids.
As far as which aid, weight is better - ask your instructor. I’ve sat on horses where it was the inside weight aid, and I’ve sat on horses where your weight was in the direction of travel. It’s easier for me to conceptualize (and actualize) it by using my weight in the direction of travel - but I am a far, far cry from an UL rider.
@Manni01 just reminded me of another exercise.
Come across the short side in counter-flexion. At the centerline, take a short diagonal to the long side. Approach the long side at about a 30 degree angle. Continue down the long side on a 30 degree angle in counter flexion. This is also called a counter shoulder in or shoulder-out.
It is an exercise to teach both the horse and rider. For the horse, it learns to use its body. For the rider, they learn not to pull on the horse’s face and learn to ride from the seat as you ask the horse to move down the long side.
My suggestion - don’t think about bringing the shoulders to the inside as that starts getting you thinking about pulling the shoulders in, which often leads to too much hand.
The approach of using the “bend” of a circle to set up the body position is great, and then I like to think about sending that outside shoulder down the rail just off the track. If you start the SI with the right body position in the horse, it should just take the inside seat bone/leg to maintain it (and possibly outside rein to catch the shoulder falling back to the rail).
You should be able to pretty much give the inside rein away for a stride or more without affecting the horse’s body position in the SI.
For your body position, my legs are both pretty much even with each other, maybe the inside leg a touch forward. I point my shoulders at the diagonal corner letter and my hips should follow.
Hoookay, here is my take. Start with the bend of a 10m circle. This puts your inside leg on the girth ,the outside leg back bending slightly at the knee. This puts your weight on the inside seatbone. then using the inside leg push the horse sideways, the outside leg maintains the bend, closing the knee and thigh against the outside shoulder keeps it in.
The reins do nothing but allow the horse’s head to follow the inward curve of the shoulder. A good test of riding inside leg to outside hand is to drop or give the inside rein. If the horse straightens you need more outside knee and thigh, be sure your now pretzeled outside leg keeps the hind end straight.
No problem!
I was always taught the my hips should match the horse’s hips and same with my shoulders. So my hips would would be straight down the long side, but my shoulders would go across the diagonal. Do you point both in the same direction?
My response is a generalization but made a huge difference for me. An upper level horse is very sensitive to your seat. Focus on developing your seat for all aids.
Ok…this is not a criticism, but I will use it as an example of how dressage people overthink their riding.
The shoulder-in is simple. You are in the 10m circle. You then ask the horse to spiral out. You then ask the horse to move in a straight line keeping the bend of the 10m circle.
Think about how one (human) spirals out. You have the motion to move the circle out. Just walk this on the ground. You are basically “slide” sideways. You simply use the same mental idea on the horse. If the horse wants to speed up just use your seat and slight retarding aid.
This is how one learns to ride by feel. It is a matter of directing energy and motion. One Portuguese trainer said your horse should feel like a trackball on the computer
Thats a bit confusing to me though. Sliding sideways sounds too much like leg yielding with tail to wall.
An exercise Ive found useful in learning to control the body parts is to shoulder in on the first track, half pass two steps, then straight in shoulder in, then half pass. A stair step exercise.
I think we are describing small semantically differences. No different than saying a half pass is haunches in on the diagonal
What is the difference between a shoulder-in, shoulder-fore and a leg yield? Very small differences in bend and angle. A competition shoulder-in is in 3 tracks. But in the classical books, the shoulder in (epaule en sedans) is in 4 tracks in all the classical illustrations with little hoof prints.
