Showing fences to green horses when schooling

[Fruehling]

This is something that I’ve been wondering about lately. What’s the general consensus? When you’re schooling your green or young horse on cross country, how often (if ever) do you let your horse have a look at the jump before jumping it?

In my very limited eventing career (read: two clinics in the last two years), I’ve already seen two very different approaches to this. In my first clinic the coach got me to show my horse most of the jumps before I asked her to jump them. All were straight forward inviting jumps, which she didn’t hesitate to. Fast forward almost a year later to clinic #2, and this coach didn’t even offer if we wanted to let our horses have a look first (though no one asked). This was fine by me as my horse was very keen, and I was happy to use the jumps to back her off a little. Also, because we have limited access to XC, and with my first event coming up soon, I want to treat each jump like we’re on course, where we need to go the first time without a look. My mare happens to be very bold, so not looking at the jump first was fine. I haven’t been able to school over a ditch, but I wonder if I would show her it, or just walk her to it and expect her to go over it the first time it was presented?

I wonder what the general consensus is with schooling young, green, inexperienced, or nervous horses for their first few schoolings on XC. Show them all the fences first until they feel confident? Expect them to go over on first presentation, but making sure jumps are small enough to walk over if there’s a stop? A combination? What’s your take!

[caevent]

I say “absolutely!” If my horse is spooky just walking up to something, I need to take the time to show the horse that the object is harmless. To then ask the horse to jump it is a piece of cake. At a certain point in a horse’s training they can then be expected to “just get on with it,” but that’s after much confidence building. Whether it’s a spooky banner hanging in the ring, flowers under a jump, whatever, they need friendly exposure to all.

[Rnichols]

I agree with the above poster. My horse is young and green, our first XC outing my coach encouraged me to let her inspect the jumps before asking her to jump them. We’ve done the same in stadium too. The first time jumping a coupe, I allowed her to walk up to it and sniff it before asking her to jump it. I want to give her confidence and set her up for success.

[MKV]

I’m curious to read the responses here. My mare, who is green when it comes to XC, can be looky especially if the jump is dark colored. When we are schooling and she thinks a jump is suspicious then I’ll let her look first, then she’s usually fine to jump it. I know eventually she’ll need to jump things without seeing it first, but right now i think it’s okay to gain trust and confidence.

[Hilary]

I don’t think you should teach a horse that you come up to something, have a sniff and turn away. So if that means your first XC is only things that they can walk over, little logs, baby ditches, water? That’s fine but they go up to them, and go over them. They can approach something scary (ditch ) along side it, and they can have their look that way - make sure you go in both directions because of the eyes on the side of the head factor, but once they are ho hum about the existence of the thing, they should learn that 'over" is what they do when you point them at it. You can do this at the walk and trot, so it’s not a big deal.

Leads are extra helpful at this stage too, and don’t expect the greenie to be the first over anything - let him go towards his friends who are on the other side.

[MKV]

@Hilary

They can approach something scary (ditch ) along side it, and they can have their look that way - make sure you go in both directions because of the eyes on the side of the head factor, but once they are ho hum about the existence of the thing, they should learn that 'over" is what they do when you point them at it. You can do this at the walk and trot, so it’s not a big deal.

This is how I let my mare look at and process “scary” jumps and it works well for her.

[beowulf]

@Hilary

I don’t think you should teach a horse that you come up to something, have a sniff and turn away. So if that means your first XC is only things that they can walk over, little logs, baby ditches, water? That’s fine but they go up to them, and go over them. They can approach something scary (ditch ) along side it, and they can have their look that way - make sure you go in both directions because of the eyes on the side of the head factor, but once they are ho hum about the existence of the thing, they should learn that 'over" is what they do when you point them at it. You can do this at the walk and trot, so it’s not a big deal.

Leads are extra helpful at this stage too, and don’t expect the greenie to be the first over anything - let him go towards his friends who are on the other side.

Agree.

The idea is that you shouldn’t present something the horse should look at - to avoid this, do what Hilary said - either get a lead, or work them around (without presenting) the obstacle for a bit.

When I was a teen my trainer had me start one of my geldings over fences by letting him look at jumps. In my honest assessment, looking back, this was not the right thing to do for this horse as he was the type that if you gave an inch would take a mile. This type of approach made him VERY balky towards a fence - he wouldn’t stop, but I could see his little ears airplaning every step of the way and I’d have to kick, kick, kick, kick him until he was over it - if I didn’t ride with an iron leg, he’d try to slow down to a walk, drop his neck and sniff it. It took him a long time to break that habit. I don’t think he was being naughty, but I think he was confused - he expected to be able to look, and when he couldn’t look, he would jump that jump with his knees past his eyeballs and it was not a pleasant experience for either of us.

Now when I have a new prospect OT, I usually start with ground poles and make everything gradual. I start ground poles almost immediately after their first rides, and after they are 100% solid on any ground poles, will put a tiny little x-rail in a ground pole’s place one day. I usually will plop them over once a ride. On trails, they go over rock walls, logs, etc - this type of foundation makes taking them out to XC for the first time really easy and a calm, nice experience. It’s not because I’m a maven at training, because I’m not – it’s because I just slowly and subtly increase the difficulty until one day we’re jumping BN-N stuff and it’s NBD. Now, once I get to N it’s a different story, but I do like building a greenie’s foundation. :winkgrin:

Their first XC ever I prefer to do on the lunge. We walk around the XC in hand, then we lead over a small log. I then ask them to go out on a circle, 20m, and trot this log about 2-5 times until they lose interest. Then it’s on to the slightly bigger log - we lead over, then go out on a circle, 2-5x until interest is lost. Usually at that point they’re used to logs on the trail and don’t give a hard look to anything.

The next XC I usually go with a buddy - I like to follow up by returning to the same place the next day or the day after, so it is still fresh on their mind. We jump everything we jumped the day before/yesterday with a horse-friend leading.

I think the best thing for a horse’s confidence is to do a few outings with a friend and play follow the leader, and then after you jump something, go back around and do it yourself with the “leader” on the other side of the fence. Do this a few times and the horses pick up pretty easily.

[vxf111]

I don’t event but I agree, horse can “have a look” but not walk up to it, stop, and turn away. We can walk/trot/canter AROUND it as many times and from as many directions as necessary but once we face and head towards a jump… horse needs to go over

[bornfreenowexpensive]

Depends on the horse, depends on the jump, depends on a lot of things.

I believe in setting up green horses for success. Some horses start out brave and bold from the beginning…others, you need to install bravery by giving them confidence. ESPECIALLY good careful jumpers. I’m much more likely to let my careful jumpers have a look at fences initially.

I was just riding a green horse this morning. I took him with me while I adjusted the jumps (was in the ring)…including a narrow with very scary filler (bright blue waves) but to me, I killed two birds with one stone…he got a look at the jumps and I set them. So in this situation, I didn’t then ride him up to them. I’ve even done this with XC–let them go for a walk in hand with me while I watched an earlier group. But I’ve absolutely walked up to jumps while on the horse and let a horse take a sniff. They know the difference. And for some horses, if they make a green stop at something…I don’t punish them right away. But I keep things small and work to teach them that when I present them over something and ask them to go over it…they go. It is my job to never asked them to jump something they are not ready for yet.

I just rode this green horse in a lesson with Jimmy Wofford this week and he stopped out at the planks fence first time I came to it…at a canter. EVEN Jimmy Wofford didn’t have me spank a green bean in that situation as is was a legit green stop…he had me canter it the first time (part of a mini course) to see what the horse did. He told us he was green, careful and to take a quick step back. So no punishment… I came back at the trot and stuffed him over it…with big rewards…then jumped it a few more times (and he did it better and better each time). If he had stopped at the trot, I would have gotten more after him, and we would have made the jump smaller. I am NOT saying you never correct a stop…but noting that it just depends…especially with green horses. Had my Prelim horse stopped…he would have gotten corrected…the expectations for him are different. He knows better and he needs to go even if I don’t give him a perfect ride.

BUT because this horse is a VERY good jumper…and very careful…I have to be careful to instill the confidence by keeping jumps small for now. And teach him that I will never catch him in the mouth (I’m grabbing mane or a neck strap EVERY time right now). When I go xc schooling…same thing. Keep it small, keep it simple, have a good lead and set him up for success.

Today…he jumped right over the little narrow jump with the scary waves under it–He jumped big over it the first time but he went over it the first time because I set him up to succeed. I warmed him up over easy things, got his confidence up, choose to jump it the first time heading home…came at the trot and focused on going straight…and when he jumped it, I told him he was good even before landing and made a big fuss over him. He also went right down to the planks he had jumped the other day with Jimmy and stepped right over them like they were nothing the first time. They have LONG memories…so you want to do everything you can to keep things positive and fun when they are green. This creates the bold/confident horses later.

ETA: And don’t forget that with xc…it also about showing them the terrain. I walk around most of the fences so that the green horse sees the back side…and knows that the landing is safe. Again…schooling and training are about instilling confidence and building your horse’s trust in you. That you are not going to ask them to jump off a cliff

[merrygoround]

With a green horse, it only makes sense.
Most trainers have fences scattered around their home fields for a reason, and when they see a new type, well, inevitably it, or something very similar, turns up in their back yard. This way they, and students with greenies get a preview.

[LookmaNohands]

I don’t face them to it to show them, I ride along side of it, around it or near it but I do not face them to it and let them have a look. Bad mojo for me to let them turn away from it.

[findeight]

Its not a simple yes or no question.

Define “showing the horse a fence”. If you mean putting their nose in it, letting them stop moving and stand facing it for some time? Then circle away and never come back? Ummmm…no. Too easy to inadvertently train them if they get tired or don’t want to keep going or don’t feel like jumping, they don’t have to. You can work beside it, around it, whatever, but anytime they can’t just suck back and decide to stop and you cannot reward them for it.

There is an often misunderstood line between letting a horse have a peek and a timid rider who doesn’t want to jump it either lacking the tools and basic respect of the horse. Even seen some get off and lead the horse up to the (usually very low) fence then never jump/trot over it. Not the lesson intended for horse or rider. Yet see it all the time.

It helps to expose them, and the riders, to enough fences just set around the ring or course to remove any novelty. Those fences are easily changed in appearance with a piece of plastic or flower pots or flags and should be moved to different locations in an arena every few weeks if not more. Not to be jumped, just to get horse and rider to understand it’s just a jump, not an alien spaceship. That’s something that’s hard to do if the home barn lacks fences or they have looked the same in the same place for years. It’s not a set up for success when you go to a show where everything is different.

Hauling out regularly to school around, not necessarily over, a large variety of jumps if your barn has nothing or you can’t do it at home really helps. So does flatwork, flatwork and flatwork. Unless horse can reliably be kept between leg and hand and kept from sucking back by that rider? Presenting the fence is a waste of time and can easily teach the wrong lesson.

[Jealoushe]

Blyth Tait made it very clear in a clinic that we absolutely SHOULD show the horse the fence and allow it to sniff it, turn away etc. Riding beside it also is OK but that actually is more likely to teach the horse to go around it. The horse is not thinking “well last time I got to stop and look and sniff it so Im not jumping it this time”. The horse is thinking, “last time I saw it was nothing scary, and I trust my rider”

If Blyth Tait says its OK, I am going to continue on thinking its OK LOL

[bornfreenowexpensive]

@Jealoushe

Blyth Tait made it very clear in a clinic that we absolutely SHOULD show the horse the fence and allow it to sniff it, turn away etc. Riding beside it also is OK but that actually is more likely to teach the horse to go around it. The horse is not thinking “well last time I got to stop and look and sniff it so Im not jumping it this time”. The horse is thinking, “last time I saw it was nothing scary, and I trust my rider”

If Blyth Tait says its OK, I am going to continue on thinking its OK LOL

I so agree with Blyth Tait. Walking up to a jump on a long rein, letting them look, sniff, put their nose on it and letting them relax about it and then YOU as the rider asking them to walk away and put them to work does NOT teach them to run out at a fence. You didn’t ask them to jump the jump by walking up to it on a long rein and letting them have a look. If they spook…I don’t let them go away. I will stay there either walking around it then up to until the green horse takes a breath and is fine to put their nose on it or stand near it relaxed. I’ve never then had the horse think it could run out because we had walked away from the fence. I do NOT stand in front of it kicking them on to get them close to it either. If they are that spooked by it, then we work in a circle around it until they are not…until they will walk up to the jump on their own accord on a loose rein.

[PNWjumper]

Lots of different opinions on this and I suspect that none of them are “right” or “wrong.” Full disclosure - this is my opinion coming from a show jumping perspective, so my opinion is worth exactly what you’re paying for it And I will also admit that my opinion might be different if I were jumping solid jumps with varying terrain on the front and back sides of the jumps!

I am of the school that I never want to show my horse a fence. I want them understanding from day 1 that they are to jump whatever I point them at without getting the benefit of a peek. A BNT I’ve ridden with quite a bit has always been very vocal about this. Jump them over as many crazy things as you can when they’re young and never let them look at it first. But to that point, he’s also okay with them stopping the first time (as long as they stay straight) - similar to what BFNE posted - and then if they stop a second time you escalate your responses until they go over it. But this type of a foundation seems a lot easier if you’re actually the one starting the horse over jumps. My last several horses that were started this way have been fabulous about always jumping no matter the obstacle. But I cannot definitively say that it’s not just because of their inherent temperaments. It very well may have nothing to do with how I started them and everything to do with the fact that they’re not naturally spooky animals.

So that’s the theory I stick with. And I am rigid about it with my babies (4-5 year olds). But then there’s reality once they step up to the bigger fences. I OFTEN walk up to jumps when I’m at a show and there’s a particularly weird looking jump. I typically circle by them (I don’t like presenting the horse to a jump if we’re not going to jump it) and give them a chance to stare at it as we walk by. I think it’s a confidence thing on my own part - I feel better if the horse gets a look even though it was never part of my program during the first couple of years of the horse’s jumping life.

[Angela_Freda]

@Jealoushe

Blyth Tait made it very clear in a clinic that we absolutely SHOULD show the horse the fence and allow it to sniff it, turn away etc. Riding beside it also is OK but that actually is more likely to teach the horse to go around it. The horse is not thinking “well last time I got to stop and look and sniff it so Im not jumping it this time”. The horse is thinking, “last time I saw it was nothing scary, and I trust my rider”

If Blyth Tait says its OK, I am going to continue on thinking its OK LOL

My horse Yo was spooky and looky.
He was also very forward.
I finally came to a warm up that worked for us that consisted of me trotting at each jump and stopping… at alternating distance before the fence. Several strides out or a few.
It did not make him a stopper. It taught him to listen to me.

When I told him ok, keep going and jump, he did. When I asked him to stop, wherever I asked him to, he did.

Would I do that with a horse who stops? No. But I see no reason that an obedient horse can not be ridden up to, stopped, allowed to check out, and then ridden away from a fence and presented to it again and not expected to remain obedient and jump if the rider asks, or stop again if rider asks for that.
It’s about them listening and being obedient.

[DMK]

I don’t have that much of an issue “presenting” the fence to a green/scared horse straight ahead. I’m also equally OK walking past or alongside it, but I do kind of tailor it to the horse I am riding. Some legitimately need to have that head on view, and it hasn’t ever translated to run outs over a few decades of this approach, so I’m good with it (I’m coming from the h/j world with the same approach applied to solid obstacles on hunter paces/xcschooling as in the ring, so take that for what it is worth).

But when I am presenting straight on, I don’t just let them mosey up and pick their path to and away from the fence. I may get there and do a 1/4 turn on the forehand, back up a step or two then halt before we walk away from it. Or back a step few steps and then walk up again and turn away. I’m just setting up in their brain that I’M asking them to do something and not doing it is mostly not optional (exceptions for when Regrettable Decision Me asks you to try and kill both of us). The things that I ask may involve the aforementioned OR actually going over the obstacle, but I’m not leaving it up to the horse to call the shots in either case. To me, that is a distinction they can learn to work with.

If they are green/spooky, I’ll show them jump A, then jump it a few times, then I will add Jump B without showing them, but I make sure Jump B is very relatable to Jump A (not necessarily in distance, but in type, for example if A was a white picket fence I will make sure B is too). After they a) know what kind of jokes I deliver and know they can survive them and b) have a lot of experience with “safe” new fences, then it’s time to learn how to jump them cold. The first part of that is the most important though, because I am an ammy and the time you are most likely to deliver a bad joke is when the horse is going “Should I? Maybe I shouldn’t… Maybe I can’t… Can I??? I CAN!!!” and then you get left behind, jump ahead and you end up on the other side of the fence with a horse who now thinks that while he CAN, maybe he’d rather not because the pilot appears to not have a clue. It’s easier to deal with that when it doesn’t get tied up in new fence baggage!

And then after you do all this at home, you need a good solid check away from home to see how much you have to repeat this process. It definitely sucks when they are one of those horses who thinks Jump A, their BFF at home is an entirely different (and evil) creature when away from home and they don’t get over it (literally and figuratively) in short order. In fact it sucks. But that’s the hand you were dealt, so you either fix it, pay someone to fix it, take up a non jumping activity or sell the horse and try again.

[somanyhorses]

I was taught an excellent method at a clinic that I have used ever since when introducing green horses to cross country fences. I have found it to be great for setting the horse up for success and keeping things safe.

This particular 4* rider was quite specific about the application of her method but said not to use it for banks, ditches or water, and to use a lead for these fences instead.

However, for all other spooky/new fences, the method was as follows - it sounds a bit weird at first but stick with me! Approach ideally in a committed but balanced canter, unless horse is super green and then a very much infront of the leg trot. Once horse has seen the fence, ears pricked and looking at it, about 50 - 75 feet away from it, halt. Immobility. Then walk up to the fence, square to the middle, and let the horse have a sniff, standing still. As we all know the really green ones will squirm and spook, but we had to get them walking towards it with no backwards steps and eventually standing there, still in front of it. No patting or making a fuss once this was achieved. Instead, after you have got the horse standing still in front of the fence, turn away, and rinse and repeat the whole thing. Canter towards fence, horse sees fence, halt, immobility, walk towards fence, let horse sniff. This was repeated as many times as needed until the horse walked forward from the halt towards the fence with its ears happily pricked, “took” you to it, and was almost bored by the process, and relaxed and chilled out when standing in front of it. I’ve seen some horses take about 5 repetitions before they are at this stage. Most take 3 times.Then, you simply canter in and jump it. I have never seen a horse stop or jump too awkwardly if this method has been effectively applied and repeated enough times before cantering in without the halt.

I have found this really good for building confidence and a partnership with green horses. Unlike just letting them “have a look” and then asking them to jump it, you are setting some ground rules around this. I find letting them walk over and having a look and then asking them to jump it can be a bit confusing for them - it almost seems to spook some of them even more if they’ve seen a fence up close and personal. And then you still don’t know whether they’ll jump it even though they’ve had a look. Relating it to the aid of canter when I say so, halt when I say so, walk up when I say so, and now that you’re indicating you’re relaxed about it Mr Horse, jump it when I say so - seems to make it easier for them to compute. I have found that after doing this over a few fences, when you halt, they sort of go “oh, ok, we’re going to walk up and see a scary thing but it’s all going to be ok”, and you need to do it less and less. After a while, because of all the halting, when you sit up and balance they really look at the fence and pay attention and stay very rideable. I have found it is less likely to result in a horse that rushes when nervous, and that by keeping their adrenaline down this way, they learn and get their head around the whole thing quicker. Likewise for me, I get a real sense of when the horse is ready to jump it and don’t feel nervous or unsafe - cross country schooling a green horse over tiny fences can be scarier than an experienced one over big fences when you simply don’t know what the green horse will do when it gets to that fence! I have a very spooky one who is now very bold and doesn’t need this method at all any more, but by using it at the beginning for his first few sessions, it really helped.

[Salty]

Wow, somany, that’s exactly what the rider did with my pony, her first time XC schooling, and it was a joy to see the lightbulb turn on over the little mare’s head as she subsequently cantered around, jumping all the things!!

[Fruehling]

Thank you everyone for the great responses! My mare is definitely one where I can just school a simpler question of in the ring and have it translate well on to XC. So I’ve been able to just ride her straight and forward and expect her to jump it at first look. But I can really picture the different types of horses and levels of training that would work with each method. I think I’ll use the approach/retreat type method when I go to introduce my mare to the fake ditch/trekhaner type jump I’m going to make.