Showing in Western Dressage

While at the tack shop, I picked up the showbill for an upcoming 4-H/Open show. They are offering both regular and western dressage, two intro and two training level tests. I did a little checking and it looks like 4-H is really embracing the western dressage movement.

I know several people have posted here, wondering where to find western dressage competitions, so you might check out 4-H clubs in your area. Some shows/classes may be 4-H only, but in this area, 4-H shows are almost always combo 4-H/Open events, so you don’t have to be in 4-H to compete.

I don`t mean to ruffle any feathers but I am going to finally voice my opinion. Take it or leave it. :wink:

I have a backround in dressage that has spanned 5 decades, not just reading books, I mean serious riding and study, learning and competing. I have the privilege of coming from a classical backround so I believe that I have a platform from which to stand on…ok call it a soap box, bully pulpit whatever you like. (Just so you know this is not just a Keyboard Komment, but from someone with education and experience.) :o

Unless Western Dressage is based on the Morgan Horse Club rules…IMO Western Dressage is not dressage, it is a poor and incorrect dumbed downed version, it is suedo-dressage and not based on true classical principles. In fact, I don`t think dressage should be allowed in the title at all. :winkgrin:

My advice to anyone interested in this sport is to get an education in true haute ecole starting at the lower levels so that they will develope the skill and a sight of the big picture and the principles there in. IMO it is money and time better spent so you can compare the real to the fake.

I was curious about this modern Western Dressage movement so I attended a three day clinic with one who is promoting it in a big way. I walked out on the second day, couldn`t stand the misinformation loosely being thrown around, the incorrect terms and use of improper tack for the level at which the horses were at. I am not talking about fashion…english vs. western, I am speaking, for example, of the function of a snaffle bit compared to the function of a curb and why such tack is used at a certain level learning specific figures with an idea to why each one is used when. (and that is just one example, there are many others)

I think there is a place for Western Dressage and would like to see it flourish but it needs to follow the Morgan Horse Club`s version to be REAL dressage; which mirrors the true classical path. :slight_smile:

Just saying “Learn and compare before you jump in with both feet.”

Re-runs, do you remember if the clinic you attended was promoting Cowboy dressage or western dressage? I don’t know if it is this way in all parts of the country, but here (Texas) we have both groups. I have a mare who I think would do great at western dressage (very athletic, smart, motivated - she needs more to do than WP). My goal this year was to learn, attend some clinics, and study but that’s been derailed a bit, so I’m not sure what the stated differences are between the two movements/disciplines/whatever.

I think, too, that because it is new and still being thought out/formed/etc., there are trainers who see this as a new niche and jump in without having good basics/understanding of what they’re doing and talking about.

cowgirljenn,

I am not in the habit of trashing names, which is why I kept silent about voicing my opinion for so long. The reason for my post was not to say “so and so does it wrong”, but to encourage people to do their homework and then compare to what is out there before they start getting on the band wagon.

The old masters did things a certain way, in a logical sequence using the proper equipment… for a reason. Why try to re-invent something that through hundreds of years has proven to be the best way, just to dumb it down and junk it all up and call it by the same name. It would be like me building a go-cart using a lawn mower engine and calling it a Ford pick up truck. For the people who had never seen a real Ford Pick-up then my go-cart could soon be known as a Ford. But my rendition of a Ford would be a far cry and a lot less than a real one but it might be accepted because people who had never seen the real thing would not have anything to compare with.

The powers that be already tried to dumb down true dressage within the dressage community with the practice of rollkur and hopefully that attempt has finally failed so, we saved it that time but with this new assault waiting in the wings.

If the new people really want to do a good job then they will have real dressage judges who are known for their classical practices to judge the western dressage shows and score accordingly to the classical principles. Let the teachers of this “new” sport get down and dirty and spend some time learning the rules that have been established over centuries. Anybody can sign up for lessons.

Granted these western horses are not going to have the big gaits etc that todays competitive dressage horses have (and they shouldnt be expected to) and that is not what will be judged............the original classical horse was a small horse; look at the Lippizan, Andalusian, Iberian breeds, but ANY horse has the ability to collect and be obedient and follow its riders lead and perform the ring figures if ridden properly. Any horse has the ability to improve its suppleness and be light even if it is just comparing to what it once was, in other words, to improve. (and be more fun to ride) So in that sense, I think there is a great benefit to the horse community that something like Western dressage exists,......... just not in its current form and in the direction that it is going.

I can also see some “gaited horse” dressage classes coming to the surface and that would also improve the overall intelligence of the horse community…IF…the classical (haute ecole) principles were followed and adjusted to fit the gaited horse.

If you want to learn dressage, and be judged by an expert, learn from a REAL dressage instructor, someone like Karl Mikolka, and learn the details of the art as best you can and hire judges of the same caliber to judge your shows. Maybe then this new sport can get off on the right foot and earn some respect. The saying around dressage circles was “dressage for every horse, but not every horse for dressage” which put off a lot of people from pursuing dressage because it sounded elitist and separate but, this new Western dressage has the “POSSIBILITY” (and I say that with great caution) to be more inclusive and encompass more breeds and invites your average person regardless of what breed of horse they have, even grades, to learn and participate. It can go two ways and it is up to those that want to play to steer it one way or the other. If I had a vision, it would be that anyone with any kind of horse would be able to learn the joy and to benefit themselves and their horse with a knowledge of classical horsemanship REGARDLESS of their $ means or breed of animal. It would resemble and take a similar path to… how the Vaquero horsemanship has gone, where anyone that is willing to learn, can participate and have fun.

Believe it or not, the Vaquero tradition and classical dressage have the same roots, so why not keep it that way and resurrect it along that path and bring that knowledge into the light again. I don`t think having it evolve into anything else (the way it is going) would be beneficial except for a few.

[QUOTE=re-runs;7512465]
I don`t mean to ruffle any feathers but I am going to finally voice my opinion. Take it or leave it. :wink:

I have a backround in dressage that has spanned 5 decades, not just reading books, I mean serious riding and study, learning and competing. I have the privilege of coming from a classical backround so I believe that I have a platform from which to stand on…ok call it a soap box, bully pulpit whatever you like. (Just so you know this is not just a Keyboard Komment, but from someone with education and experience.) :o

Unless Western Dressage is based on the Morgan Horse Club rules…IMO Western Dressage is not dressage, it is a poor and incorrect dumbed downed version, it is suedo-dressage and not based on true classical principles. In fact, I don`t think dressage should be allowed in the title at all. :winkgrin:

My advice to anyone interested in this sport is to get an education in true haute ecole starting at the lower levels so that they will develope the skill and a sight of the big picture and the principles there in. IMO it is money and time better spent so you can compare the real to the fake.

I was curious about this modern Western Dressage movement so I attended a three day clinic with one who is promoting it in a big way. I walked out on the second day, couldn`t stand the misinformation loosely being thrown around, the incorrect terms and use of improper tack for the level at which the horses were at. I am not talking about fashion…english vs. western, I am speaking, for example, of the function of a snaffle bit compared to the function of a curb and why such tack is used at a certain level learning specific figures with an idea to why each one is used when. (and that is just one example, there are many others)

I think there is a place for Western Dressage and would like to see it flourish but it needs to follow the Morgan Horse Club`s version to be REAL dressage; which mirrors the true classical path. :slight_smile:

Just saying “Learn and compare before you jump in with both feet.”[/QUOTE]

I really believe reining is the Western version of dressage and anything else is a poor second. What I have seen at local shows is sad, and I am not a dressage person but do understand the principals.

NoSuchPerson–that’s great to hear! Another great way to find places to show is to call around to local dressage schooling shows and just ask. My local club started offering them after I asked about it and it’s been a great experience.

re-runs–I’m not actually sure what you’re objecting too. The AMHA (American Morgan Horse Association) uses WDAA tests. Every show I’ve even been to also uses WDAA tests. WDAA is the USEF recognized affiliate as of last year.

Are you objecting to one of the other clubs (Cowboy Dressage or North American Western Dressage)? Because Cowboy Dressage is it’s own private thing and NAWD is kinda hanging on at the fringe.

[QUOTE=Luseride;7513152]
I really believe reining is the Western version of dressage and anything else is a poor second. What I have seen at local shows is sad, and I am not a dressage person but do understand the principals.[/QUOTE]

In some ways, reining is very dressage-like, but in other ways it’s very different.

The biggest differences is in the levels. Reining has some separations for amateurs, pros, etc. but there is no equivalent to training levels in reining. The advanced moves in reining are taught early to young horses. Those horses are then expected to spin, slide, and change leads as soon as they start to compete. In dressage, you’d never take a 3 year old into an arena and expect him to piaffe.

In reining, you compete to show off mostly your horse’s natural ability and a little bit of his training.

In dressage, you compete to show off your horse’s advanced training and a little bit of his natural ability.

Reining would be like dressage if dressage only used upper level tests. While GP dressage done right is great to watch, the vast majority of dressage riders are riding the lower levels to improve their relationship with their horse.

I watched several training level dressage tests last weekend, and they looked pretty bad as well. But that’s why they were showing at training level as either the horse or riding are still in the process of learning.

Dressage is on the bit, western is not when done correctly. It just makes me cringe seeing someone ride two handed in a curb bit and that is what I have seen of Western Dressage.

Now gaited dressage I can see as a viable option.

[QUOTE=Two Fishies;7513166]
The AMHA (American Morgan Horse Association) uses WDAA tests. Every show I’ve even been to also uses WDAA tests. WDAA is the USEF recognized affiliate as of last year.[/QUOTE]

The 4-H show is also using WDAA tests.

And for Pete’s sake, does every single mention of western dressage on this message board need to be followed up by an anti-western dressage diatribe? It’s getting a little old.

It just makes me cringe seeing someone ride two handed in a curb bit and that is what I have seen of Western Dressage.

YES!!!

[QUOTE=NoSuchPerson;7513246]
The 4-H show is also using WDAA tests.

And for Pete’s sake, does every single mention of western dressage on this message board need to be followed up by an anti-western dressage diatribe? It’s getting a little old.[/QUOTE]

God forbid anyone indulge in a sport they’re interested in without being made fully aware that someone on the internet disapproves of it.

1 Like

Right, because in “real” dressage they never use two hands on a curb. Oh wait a minute…

Seriously, there are different types of western curbs. No, you shouldn’t use contact (two or one hand) on a spade, but a low port futurity curb is made so that you CAN use two hands…its jointed so you can pick up one side only.

I have always thought of dressage showing as show casing your horse’s progression through its schooling…same thing with western style dressage (what it is called in Canada).

The end product for WSD (in Canada anyway) is meant to be a western pleasure type horse, not a reining type horse. Slow, relaxed and comfortable, and understanding to bend around leg or move off leg. The horse is supposed to be easy to ride. I cannot see how “haute ecole” training would create this type of horse.

The term dressage was used as it represents the systematic and progressive system that WSD uses and Dressage uses. I am not sure why this offends some people.

[QUOTE=CHT;7513367]
Right, because in “real” dressage they never use two hands on a curb. Oh wait a minute…

Seriously, there are different types of western curbs. No, you shouldn’t use contact (two or one hand) on a spade, but a low port futurity curb is made so that you CAN use two hands…its jointed so you can pick up one side only.[/QUOTE]

Well said. Also, dressage is not defined by a stiff grip on a horse’s face. This is classical dressage with slack in the rein:

http://www.classicaldressage.ru/_ph/18/2/865459359.jpg

I have always thought of dressage showing as show casing your horse’s progression through its schooling…same thing with western style dressage (what it is called in Canada).

The end product for WSD (in Canada anyway) is meant to be a western pleasure type horse, not a reining type horse. Slow, relaxed and comfortable, and understanding to bend around leg or move off leg. The horse is supposed to be easy to ride. I cannot see how “haute ecole” training would create this type of horse.

The term dressage was used as it represents the systematic and progressive system that WSD uses and Dressage uses. I am not sure why this offends some people.

Because our way of having fun is just slightly different than their way of having fun, thus we need to be repeatedly reminded that we’re wrong.

I used to have a mare like this. She’d dump her rider if they didn’t ride nearly exactly like I did. She had a championship in traditional and Western Dressage though…

I am just going by what I see. Two hands, tightly held, on a solid mouthpiece curb bit.

I am all about doing different things and expanding knowledge. When we go to a show next week I will show one horse over fences, another on the flat and in a suitable for dressage rail class. Then I will change and ride our gaited mule in the gaited classes then the first horse will do the PeeWee classes western and the second one will do Novice Western.

We do a lot of things with our horses and they are happy but the ones I have observed being ridden Western Dressage are not happy. I am sure somewhere it is better but we can only go by what we have observed.

[QUOTE=cowgirljenn;7512661]
Re-runs, do you remember if the clinic you attended was promoting Cowboy dressage or western dressage? I don’t know if it is this way in all parts of the country, but here (Texas) we have both groups. I have a mare who I think would do great at western dressage (very athletic, smart, motivated - she needs more to do than WP). My goal this year was to learn, attend some clinics, and study but that’s been derailed a bit, so I’m not sure what the stated differences are between the two movements/disciplines/whatever.

I think, too, that because it is new and still being thought out/formed/etc., there are trainers who see this as a new niche and jump in without having good basics/understanding of what they’re doing and talking about.[/QUOTE]

I really, really, really wish that AQHA would get off its butt and put together something really achievable to put dressage points on our QHs. The way it is structured right now, it is nearly impossible in some regions.

Anyway, why not try your WP mare in real dressage and explore the true versatility of our breed. Trust me, it will also have positive effects on her WP performance and she may enjoy doing something different.

[QUOTE=NoSuchPerson;7513246]
The 4-H show is also using WDAA tests.

And for Pete’s sake, does every single mention of western dressage on this message board need to be followed up by an anti-western dressage diatribe? It’s getting a little old.[/QUOTE]

You know, when we had the audacity to discuss western dressage on the dressage forum we were drummed out of their town. Fair enough; we’re now discussing western dressage on the western forum and still we are being hounded by those who think WD is an affront to the dressage gods.

Paula

[QUOTE=Luseride;7513740]
I am just going by what I see. Two hands, tightly held, on a solid mouthpiece curb bit. [/QUOTE]

I can’t even tell if you’re talking about TD or WD, but neither is actually supposed to be two hands on a curb bit, tightly held.

I am all about doing different things and expanding knowledge. When we go to a show next week I will show one horse over fences, another on the flat and in a suitable for dressage rail class. Then I will change and ride our gaited mule in the gaited classes then the first horse will do the PeeWee classes western and the second one will do Novice Western.

We do a lot of things with our horses and they are happy but the ones I have observed being ridden Western Dressage are not happy. I am sure somewhere it is better but we can only go by what we have observed.

Again, the TD tests I watched last weekend featured bucking, spinning, and general stressed-horse-brain-losing. It was tough to watch, but not a valid argument against the existence of TD.

"This is classical dressage with slack in the rein:

http://www.classicaldressage.ru/_ph/18/2/865459359.jpg"

Actually, you reinforce my point. N.O. in that picture is riding off the snaffle in a"'double" bridle, not off the curb. Riding in a double takes some tact and education because each of the bits has its own purpose, and the curb, since it is a leverage bit, is not ridden with the curb rein tight or the curb chain comes into play, which it should not have to do and is incorrect. When a person finally starts working their horse in the double, the horse having developed a degree of self carriage, the curb just hangs there.

There once was an offshoot of dressage for the masses that also became something else, at least they called it by another name; saddleseat riding.

I suggest to anyone that wants to defend Western Dressage in its current form to at least read Dr. Deb Bennetts The Conquerors so they can get a grasp of how different disciplines evolved. At least they will get some idea of the big picture.

That was not why I posted that. The other poster was arguing that dressage is supposed to be “on the bit” as in without slack in the rein, which I assume because she was basing this off of modern dressage.

Also: What exactly are you objecting to, because you seem to be saying that WDAA tests are the “correct” tests that we should all follow…yet you’re objecting to a post about WDAA tests being offered…?

Your posts are confusing as 1) you keep referring to the “Morgan Horse Club” but it sounds like you’re trying to reference the AMHA and 2) this is no such thing as a “true classical path”. If you put the all the classical dressage masters together in a room, they couldn’t agree to a pizza topping, let alone what Dressage is. Even Baucher disagreed with himself.

Even Baucher disagreed with himself.

I`m glad you brought up Baucher because he actually found out that his horses were not forward thinking because of his premature and over use of the “curb” and it hindered their forward movement because they were not 'through". It is one of the big criticisms of Baucher by his critics. Baucher could not agree with himself because there are two Bauchers in one man…the first manner; before his accident and his second manner;…after he lost the use of his legs and had to learn to ride accordingly to function with his handicap.

I object to people trying to change an art form/sport to fit their ideas instead of the people taking the time to learn dressage principles.

I would like to see the WD tests be judged on accuracy and harmony between horse and rider using conventional, legal dressage tack (bits; especially at the lower levels, not saddles or rider apparel) because some of the tack actually has meaning in training a horse. You use the proper tack for the stage of training that the horse is at…that is only logical. I would not judge the horses on their gaits, that part I would leave out because the horse breeds that most people will be riding will not be big moving horses. I would have a score for suppleness. So accuracy, suppleness, attention to rider and rider to horse (harmony) would be judged. There would be a score for the riders seat. There could be levels mirroring the now dressage levels with rules that dictate what tack can and cannot be used. Instead of the purpose of training being focused on going up the levels to Grand Prix, the levels could focus on the horse getting ready to work cattle in a functional manner and eventually; transition to the spade would be like conventional dressage tests, say… graduation to the two rein equals third level. The spade and perhaps some of the movements of Doma Vaquera would be like reaching Grand Prix in dressage.

I really think that the WD people need guidance from one of the living “old masters” of the haute ecole to set this up before it is too late and they are all gone and that is why I mentioned Karl Mikolka. He is one of the few people that I know that kept true to his art and accepts any kind of horse in his lessons. But there are others.

Right now it appears that the western dressage crowd is all over the map with no real path to follow. I do think there is a place for this kind of competition. It would open dressage training principles up to a lot more people and they could learn how to incorporate dressage into their training programs. And last of all, it could be a lot of fun, more laid back and less of an investment in trying to buy that expensive horse with the big gaits, therefore letting more people participate because it is affordable.