Side passing

[Shadow14]

I am just curious to see who trains their horse to side pass?? One of the first things I always teach is side passing right after backing. It is easy to teach and after about a week of work you should have a fairly good side pass.
I seem to use it on every ride. It is used to control the horses hind end in a tight situation.
At least a half dozen times on every ride I suddenly stop and get the horse to sidepass left and right about 8 or 10 feet to keep him sharp.
I will be passing a driveway at a good working trot and suddenly say HO and the horse stops square and immediately. I then lay a leg on him and he must sidepass staying square and flow smoothly until I again say HO. He must again stand patiently until I either walk off or make him side pass back the other direction where he must again halt and stand square and patient.
I do not allow him to sidepass jerky or get out of square and he must stop dead when I say HO.
I also practice in situations where he is under pressure like a big truck comming barrelling down on us. He must react instantly to the slightest pressure.
I do wear a pair of handmade spurs with a 3/8th 1 3/4 inch long rounded stud at a 45 degree angle facing in so by just raising the heel I can touch him with the stud.
Honestly his ability to sidepass has saved us countless time from possible injury. Even last night on our run crossing a railroad track the snow plow doesn’t push the bank back leaving no shoulder and Rio and I are caught making the crossing with traffic and he about 2 feet between him and the traffic so with his flank almost touching the bank he crossed in his narrow alloted space. You can not just pull a rein and maintain tight control of his hind end.
Again just curious who out there has a good sidepasser??

To me this is the ultimate sidepass
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=HgG_Gwy7Ysg

[Auventera_Two]

I’ve seen that video before. Ok, the abuse of bullfighting aside,

I use leg yield and half pass regulary for suppling. As for side pass, well, I’ve done it yes, when the situation called for it, but to actively train it and use it, no I don’t. In the leg yield, the horse’s body is bent away from the direction of travel. It’s more natural, and it’s easier. In the half pass, the horse is bent toward the direction of travel. Sweets seems to really like the lateral movements, but that makes sense because my Arabs do love collection more than extension.

I use my own “trail rider version” of travers and renvers on the trail also. Probably wouldn’t score too high on a dressage test, but its functional and effective.

I try really hard not to just pull the horse around with reins. I see a lot of trail riders just pulling their horses around by the reins instead of asking them for the movement through their body first. I grew up in dressage so its natural for me to think of asking the horse to move her haunches over with seat and leg, before going to the reins. Pulling the head and neck around is a sure way to destroy your connection from hindquarter to hand and stall out any forward movement.

Having dressage roots, I always tend to think in terms of the training scale so I spent a long time developing balance and rhythm and relaxation before I started adding any under saddle lateral movements. It requires contact and collection to do it correctly, and that can’t come before you have connection and balance with rhythm.

I did do lateral movements on the ground with her, in hand, which also gave us something to do when she was too young to ride. She learned turn on the haunches and turn on the forehand also. The system has worked out well for Sweets.

Never had a need for spurs. Spurs are used for refinement, and we’ve not reached a point in our training yet where we’ll refine any movements. We’re still working on basics.

I rarely get myself into situations that require technical movements just to stay alive. I use lateral movement to dodge a hole or a fallen tree. I use them for suppling and conditioning. But I’ve never had to use them to not get snow plowed or smashed in the traffic. If I ride on roads, I wait until the roadway is clear before crossing, or I ride on roads that have good ditches so I can get down in them if I need to. In the winter when it’s icy and snowy I stick to the trails and fields. The couple of roads that I do ride on year round have good wide ditches and shoulders so I’m well away from the traffic. There is one spot with a double culvert and I stand in the ditch and wait until all the traffic is clear for as far as I can see before going up on the road and between the culverts. There is no shoulder and no ditch in that area and it would be way too dangerous if cars were coming.

[Rooster1554]

Sidepassing

Shadow,
For those of us who don’t know how, can you explain the basics of training the sidepass?

Joe

[Blue_Bandit]

not a dressage rider, but my trail horses all know to give to pressure, leg or otherwise…we ride on rough, hilly trails here and they have to yield to pressure when asked. Our Azahriah horse would love to be a dressage horse…he is semi-retired at nine due to suspensory issues…probly my favorite horse of all time…
pics of Az in better days showing some of our tricky trails…

http://www.kodakgallery.com/ViewSlideshow.action?&collidparam=39864519108.148562891308.1229006291193

[Shadow14]

[QUOTE=Rooster1554;3719102]
Shadow,
For those of us who don’t know how, can you explain the basics of training the sidepass?

Joe[/QUOTE]

I,m a poor one to ask. I have never taken a lesson and I tend to do things my way. I use reason and experience to get me through.
Anyway I have never failed to get a horse to sidepass and do it extremely well in a short time.
It helps if the horse wants to go a certain direction , like home.
I pick something solid, like a gate, in my case a big tank laying on it’s side.
I start with the horse facing the solid object and then since I do wear spurs bump him in the flank with the opposite leg to the direction I want to go.
In my case home was to the right so I start on the left end of the tank, face the tank square and then using the left leg and opening the right rein I encourage the horse to take a side step to the right, again keeping the horse square to the tank and using the left leg. When I get this step to the right I stop and pat the horse praising him for being a good boy. I practice this a number of times getting just a step or two and then praise.
I then try and pick something in the opposite direction and encourage him to take a step to his left, this time using the right leg and openning his left rein.
I speed him up after a few days with a harder jab from the spur.
Some time within the week I end up in a good fight, the horse while sidepassing left and right lacks speed and squareness so the spur is used harder and that upsets the horse and you end up fighting each other.
I have never backed down from a fight and before we move on the horse is sidepassing.
Funny but after a major fight like this the horse from then on responds much quicker, better and the issue is solved. My major fight came on a sunday on a back road and on Tuesday, monday he had off we were sidepassing really well.
Since then which is about 1 month ago we practice every ride and he is flowing quickly and with the lightest touch, without getting upset in any way left or right, even under pressure of something frightening.
I then go on to sidepassing over obsticles, things like the mounting block, garbage cans, blue boxes, anything I can find that clears his belly.

Again I might be a little rough at times but the horse becomes extremely light to the touch because of it.
Example if you have the horse in cross ties and you want to move the horse over, the butt over a light touch of the finger and the horse flows away immediately, if not a quick hard jab in the rib cage with a hoof pick gets a quick response and the next time he will move with the slightest touch.

[Shadow14]

A2 I run alot of roads. The footing is fantastic if you are studded up properly, no deep snow, consistent footing, even if it is ice, properly studded there is absolutley no problems. In the warm winter days sometimes the gravel melts right next to the blacktop and you can run a sort of soft footing.
I do have to deal with busy busy highways, I live in a very densely populated area and leaving the barn puts me right on a busy highway and shoulders are becomming less and less. Just crossing a nearby freeway puts up up high with guard rails and concrete bridge retainers and NO room. This is about 300 yards, no visibility since you are going up until the bridge and you will run into something crossing the bridge, no people sidewalks either so you take your chances and prey. I do run this 4 times a week and yes I always seem to meet a garbage truck or something, every time so the horse learns to hold under any situation and I use my legs and my voice and my dominance over the horse to hold him tight to the rail and at the same time no pressure on the reins.
I try never to tighten up in a touchy scary situation since it warns the horse, so I try and sit relaxed, loose reins, legs NOT clamped on, just up against the barrier and talking. If he panics I am at the point when a sharp command to stand up is all it takes with a quick hold of the reins.
It has been about a month now since he last broke and tried to run while cornered. the worst is behind us and soon we will not even notice.
I also work a major trucking firm depo and ride up and down in front of the base letting him ride between parked idling tractor trailers. He is almost immune to them unless they are sending up a spray.
Snowmobile season starts in a week or two depending on snow and then I move to the trails

[Auventera_Two]

Well, here I am fortunate to have really nice trails and quiet country roads for riding. I still maintain that northern Wisconsin is heaven on earth. I travel North a lot to ride in the Northwoods. It’s nothing but mile after desolate mile of abandoned flowage roads, trails winding through pine forests, and serene river crossings. I take the GPS to make sure I don’t get lost. The most danger you face there is running into a bear or a bobcat.

I do have to cross the ocassional highway, or go down the side of the busy county road with semis or motorcycles going by, but again, there’s a nice shoulder and nice ditch so it’s really not a big problem.

The trail I ride on the most is 1 mile from my house, and then it’s 8 miles out, and 8 miles back of great wooded trail with no road crossings or traffic, or any other trail users. There’s one big creek crossing. It’s heavenly.

As for training the lateral movements - get a dressage instructor to learn how to do it the correct way. I don’t like the “jab the horse in the flank with your spurs” method. I like horses to get the full benefit of the exercise, which isn’t just moving over - but it’s developing muscle and learning body control. It’s using the hindquarters correctly and creating flexion and suppleness. And that can’t come from a jab in the flank with the spur. Sorry but it just can’t. If you just use the lateral movements to “move over” then I suppose however you accomplish that is fine. But if you’re using lateral movements for what they’re really designed for, you have to train it correctly.

99% of the time Sweets just does whatever it takes to keep us safe, or get around or over obstacles. I’m not big into micro managing. I pretty much sit quiet and let her pick the best route. She’ll bend her rib cage in half to squeeze between trees, or do a turn on the haunches when she figured out “We can’t go that way” then she’ll pick a different route. So when I use the lateral movements, I do it on good ground for suppling and conditioning.

[Shadow14]

I too have fantastic bush trails within a mile of the barn but after running them for 20 plus years they become old. I can easily get a 15 mile loop in the bush but again running it 4 times a week year after year gets boring.
I find the roads gave me the long stretches where I could really just sit back, think whatever I wanted and let Strider or Shadow settle into a good working lope and spend the next hour just cruising along. The pleasure came from feeling those guys working between your knees and marvelling at how effortlessly they seemed to hold pace.
Running bush was too slow, too many twists and turns and no chance to really work them. 15 miles of bush at a working trot wouldn’t do the same for me as 10 miles at a constant lope.
I can’t also find enough obsticles to challenge Rio anymore in the bush. On the road something new is always comming along. Like garbage day Monday. A great chance to train around garbage pails and blue boxes.
As for side passing I know my guy will do it any time, anywhere and only on command, not when he decides it is a good time. He will also not refuse a rough water crossing because he respects the spurs and if I nudge him and hold him steady he will cross anything.
Just because you wear spurs doesn’t mean you have to jab them in the gut everytime. Actually a horse remains lighter if you carry something that can hurt. They know you have it, they know you will use it so a slight touch and they respond.

[Shadow14]

I am NOT NOT advocating this but I understand it.
Again I an NOT saying this, I am repeating what I read in a very old old book on Arabian horses.
If I had to, to save my life or a person’s life I would run Rio to death. I understand this and I would do it to save a life.

The arab horse was a WAR horse. His rider depended on him for his life. To loose a horse at times was to die and if death or killing a horse was a stake the horse was sacrificed and you would do the same to Sweets if your life was at stake.
Anyway after a horse was made, say 7 years old he was SPURRED.
A specialist rode the horse wearing knives on his spurs that cut the flanks and the horse was spurred in a professional manner to inflict certain cuts. Then the cuts were rubbed with either salt, gunpowder or a combination of both to inflict severe pain. Once the cuts healed that horse would run till he dropped or respond to the slightest touch, yes it was out of fear but in battle fear in a horse is not considered and the life of the rider is of utmost importance so hence the harsh lesson with the spur.
Again I read this from an old old arab book, can give the name and all information if someone needs it but once trained with this method the horse never refused.
I do not go to these extremes and certianly have never cut a horse but in the end my horses are made and will not refuse.
It is a shame when a 1 to 2 month old horse in training at 3 years of age can beat out 20 and 30 year old horses in both manners, manuverabilty and courage at crossing whatever.

[GoForAGallop]

Okay, but none of us are taking our horses into war anymore. There is a very rare chance that I will ever have to choose between sacrificing my horse or sacrificing myself, and I’m a little confused as to what point you are trying to make.

I have a properly trained, fit horse. I can take him out on busy highways or in rough terrain, and never fear. He sidepasses. He does haunches in, and shoulders in. He turns on both the haunches and the forehand. He does lead changes. We are starting to consider canter pirouettes. Most important of all, he knows the “whoa” and “stand” commands, and listens even when nervous about something.

I ride him in a snaffle and no spurs. He is not afraid of me. Yet he behaves. Fear and pain are not necessary for a well-trained horse.

[Shadow14]

No mine is not a war horse either. I was just talking about something I read. I do believe in spurs, feel naked without them and I do not have a horse that fears me. Don’t confuse respect for fear.
Yes I am strick on everything a horse does once I am around and they quickly learn the boudry’s.
I am sure your horse can do all that but will it continue to do all that under stress??? If the horse is frightened will it still respond?? Will it quickly sidestep to avoid danger?
How about walking a 30 inch concrete walkway, no sides and 10 feet in the air over a rushing river. Will you cross it on the horse???
Did you watch the video on Merlin??? Look at that horse sidepass. Do you feel that was done by just asking nicely?? How about a very agressive set of spurs and used aggressively until he learned to respond to the slightest touch.
My general opinion is most horse are really week when it comes to sidepassing and yet it is a useful tool no matter what you are doing.
Even handing a drink to a fellow rider it is far nicer/easier then pulling the horse around. Just sidestep over to the other horse and it is eccential for doing gates PROPERLY. If you want to do a half assed job then you can do without sidepassing.
It does’t take a lifetime to make a horse, about 1 1/2 years to teach everything and yes leads are an important part, a necessity only my young guy will not get to the cantering stage for another 4-6 months until he gets a little more growth in him.

[GoForAGallop]

My horse respects me, and I have not inflicted any pain beyond a smack if he doesn’t move over promptly when asked. No jabs with spurs or hoofpicks. I am also NOT a “natural horsemanship” devotee, so no worries about that. I don’t use any fancy lead ropes or lunge lines or “carrot sticks.” Just proper ground manners on the ground, and proper manners in the saddle.

And yes, he will continue to do it under stress. We have been in some scary situations before; one I recall was a group trail ride. I was leading, and unbeknownst to me there was a nest of ground wasps that was directly under the trail. By the time the second horse was through, they were all wound up and attacking anything they could. Our group was split, as people stopped once the bees were obvious, but I heard someone from the “safe” group calling that a pony had bolted with her young rider. Understand that all this is taking place in a matter of seconds. Even though my horse was being attacked by bees, I was able to move him over to block most of the trail and then snag the little pony as she ran by with her rider. Once we were out of the bees, my horse was even tolerant enough to allow the girl to climb up behind me, and she rode behind me the whole three miles home while I ponied her pony off of my horse. I have never been more pleased with him, and it was an excellent opportunity to showcase his good manners.

Like you, I also ride on roads, and I live in a rural area. We have encountered more than a couple interesting pieces of farm equiptment, as well as idiots speeding on gravel roads who don’t care about the horse on the side. I have never felt in danger. My horse is almost always the lead horse or the “trail babysitter” as he does/goes through anything I ask and without much of a fuss, and sets a good example.

I am not saying that sidepassing is not a very handy skill to have. I just, personally, do not agree with your methods of achieving it, as I have gotten what sounds like the exact same results with none of the pain.

[rainechyldes]

All my horses leg yield, sidepass ,counter canter lead change, learn to open/close gates. tie etc etc.

Do I wear spurs? On some horses -yes. On some occasions -yes.

Other people Shadow aside, never get on a horse without spurs, do they always use them, who knows, perhaps not. Just like some people never get on a horse without a whip in their hand.
I don’t see the relevance of lambasting Shadow for wearing spurs, when we can pretty much garantee a fair percentage of riders wear them all the time. I will say I am not a fan of his methods, they work for him - great. That’s fine. I’m not there to have to watch it.

However I do have an issue with Shadow’s constant assumption that no one on this forum can put out a well behaved horse but him.

I beg to differ- strenuously.

Can I put one out in a week. Why would I, is my question?

Is it worth the chances of ending up in a bad situation and ruining a horse’s mind by pushing so hard? To me, it’s not, also I’m the single and only supporting parent with two children as of yet. I can’t afford to get hurt seriously by being impatient.

I usually take 45-60 days to put a horse from halter trained only, to on the trails and working every day in flat and jumping both arena and xcountry. A ruined horse, may take longer, as I often take in last chance horses and work on turning them around. And while your horse may be able to run merrily along the roads and do well by you, which is excellent, I put out ‘finished’ horses.

IE - flat/dressage.xcountry/show jumping /capable competing endurance horses. ALL my horses do show successfully as well as compete in endurance. And I am by no means a timid competitor, I play to win in any discipline we happen to be involved in that day.

Also I’ll dd the caveat, that I consider one of my horses finished, when one of my boys can control and ride it anywhere/anytime. My children are capable riders,but that’s a rule around this farm, all the horses but my personal horse must be able to be ridden out on the trails or at a show by a 9 & 13 year old and compete safely. (Thats finished.) And yes , I’m talking Arabs.

Why - because it’s my choice to do so.

Does that make me less of a trainer then you because I don’t have a horse hauling ass down the trail in 3 days. Nu uh, doesn’t work that way. I’ll put one of my horses up against yours anytime.

[Gestalt]

I work with my horses on the ground first and then teach the sidepass through leg yield. It is a very important aid especially when trail riding.

*When a vulgar video is posted would you PLEASE put a notice on it. The last thing I want to see is a disgusting display of brutality.

[GoForAGallop]

[QUOTE=rainechyldes;3720818]

I don’t see the relevance of lambasting Shadow for wearing spurs, when we can pretty much garantee a fair percentage of riders wear them all the time. I will say I am not a fan of his methods, they work for him - great. That’s fine. I’m not there to have to watch it.

However I do have an issue with Shadow’s constant assumption that no one on this forum can put out a well behaved horse but him.

.[/QUOTE]

I just want to clear it up that I am not against the use of spurs. I have worn them before, and don’t have a problem with them on an educated leg as a tool of refinement. (Or for a fat lazy paint mare, who is my most recent cause for digging out the spurs. :lol:) It just seems, from his posts, that they are a major training aid and used in a rather brutal method. Again, just going from what is written. I have never seen him ride, wouldn’t even know it was a “him” if you hadn’t just said so.

But yes, I have the same issue that you do. He seems to feel that there is only one way of creating a properly trained horse, and that is his way. I was just writing with my own experiences of using a completely different (and, seemingly, far gentler) method, and getting the exact same results.

[Auventera_Two]

My horse is my partner for life - god willing and the creek don’t rise…If it takes 3 months, or 5 years for her to be “finished” I don’t care. I hope to still be riding and competing her late into her 20s. I intend to traverse thousands of miles with her, and I hope we can see the world together.

I couldn’t live with myself if I put on a big set of spurs and started raking her flanks in some half assed attempt at teaching a “side pass.” She’s my partner, my buddy. We’ve been through a lot together already. I’ve seen her grow from a baby and we’ve done all the “firsts” together… First trailer ride, first hoof trimming, first leading session, first saddling, first cavalleti pole, first trail ride. Every one of these firsts has been done with kindess and compassion, but of course firmness and consistency. So why on earth should I put on a set of spurs and lay into her flanks with them to get that first side pass?

Leg yielding comes way before side passing (or half passing, if you’re a dressage person.) Bull fighting aside I cannot think of any reason in the world why a horse should have to run sideways at the Mach 9 while someone is laying into his flanks with spurs.

All the lateral movements develop suppleness in the horse. My horse does the lateral movements just fine, and it took months to train them. They’re far from perfect, but we work on things all the time. For me, the joy is in the journey. There’s no fun in cranking out a horse in 30 days so I can run her 20 miles a day for the rest of her life. That’s just not how I approach horse training, or riding.

[Shadow14]

A2 unless Rio is killed he is my LAST horse I will ever own. Shadow was intended to be my last horse but unfortunately he died early.
Suddenly my BIG spurs are racking the sides of the horse in a half assed attempt at side passing??? That any big big bit?? Actually a small light snaffle. Can really inflict pain? And if that isn’t enough I could always start to carry a whip??
I am not looking to spend 5 years making a horse. I ride on the edge too often.
Again each to his own but my way makes a good horse, a great partner and regardless of what most of you thing my horse do not cower when I approach, just the opposite , they get excited, Dad is here.
Animals want structure, they want routine, they want to know where they stand and once this routine, this structure is established both parties are happier.
I’ve been around animals too long, longer then most of you have been alive, seen too many people pussy foot around and get nowhere, seen too many pushy bad mannered horses to think you can reason with them.
Unless you know my horses, see how they act with me, see how I treat them in real life don’t be too quick to judge how I make a horse.
I can think of 65 boarding horse that prove me right.

[Auventera_Two]

@Shadow14;3721796

I am not looking to spend 5 years making a horse. I ride on the edge too often.

Well, I don’t, and I doubt that many of us here do.

Again each to his own but my way makes a good horse, a great partner and regardless of what most of you thing my horse do not cower when I approach, just the opposite , they get excited, Dad is here.
Animals want structure, they want routine, they want to know where they stand and once this routine, this structure is established both parties are happier.

And the rest of here also turn out good horses that respect us and can be ridden darned near anywhere. Regardless what you might think, you don’t corner the market on horse training and bonding.

I’ve been around animals too long, longer then most of you have been alive, seen too many people pussy foot around and get nowhere, seen too many pushy bad mannered horses to think you can reason with them.

So if we don’t whip our horses and gouge their sides and knock them down to their knees with a big bit, and lope them 20 miles a day in the traffic or on glare ice, and let them fall down at a gallop at least a dozen times a year, we’re pussy footing around and have spoiled bad mannered horses that are a danger to society? Hmmm. I see.

Unless you know my horses, see how they act with me, see how I treat them in real life don’t be too quick to judge how I make a horse.
I can think of 65 boarding horse that prove me right.

Norval - we don’t really care too much how you train or handle your horses. Why do you have this insatiable urge to PROVE something to the rest of us. What I do works, what others do works, what you do works. Who cares?

The truth is, when I taught my horse to do lateral movements, the goal wasn’t to just make her run the hell over sideways NOW before we get killed by a gravel truck. The purpose was to develop suppleness and collection, and to further expand her basic training.

Yeah I ride on the road too but I don’t take dumb chances. 99% of the time, I’m more apt to see a bald eagle, a coyote, or a deer, than I am get creamed by semi trucks or fall off concrete bridges onto the busy highway. For me, riding needs to be peaceful and enjoyable or I don’t want to do it. I have an hour commute one way, as it is, and the last thing I want when I go home, is to ride my horse through semi trucks and lumber yards.

[Guilherme]

For several years we’ve incorporated basic dressage-type movements in the training of our horses. We need them for the Military Equitation competitions we participate in. They are also very helpful in mounted saber and shooting events. Needless to say, they can be very valuable riding trails, particularly unimproved ones where the ability to ride “step for step” can be a safety thing.

I generally ride with spurs. They are mostly a precision device. When added to the hand, seat, and leg they can help the horse quickly understand what’s being asked. They also work as a “force multiplier” for the leg and even as an accelerator. These, in my view, are clearly secondary uses.

Properly used, a spur does not inflict pain. Neither does a crop or a curb bit. Any of these devices CAN inflict pain, but if it does it’s because the rider chooses to use it in that fashion (or is a "hamfist or “dunderheaded lummox”). The same can be said for snaffle bits, saddles, mechanical hackamores, “bitless” bridles, or any other piece of tack or equipment.

Basic dressage manuevers are very useful in lots of circumstances. You don’t need to worry about “purity” or “frame,” only that you get controlled movement of the horse part you want in the direction you want.

For a well detailed, but simply written, book on training go to the U.S. Cavalry Association website, select the Suttler’s Store, and under “books” order Vol. II of the Horsemanship and Horsemastership series entitled Education of Horse and Rider. It will be the best $15 (or so) you’ve ever spent.

G.

[katarine]

I am just curious to see who trains their horse to side pass??

I do.

Again just curious who out there has a good sidepasser??

Me.

I wear spurs on Jake that are english style with plastic barrel type rollers. Neat tools that I use when I want to do precise work lateral work. I don’t need them on trails, checking the mail, being the mobile beer cart…he’ll go anywhere I put him w/o spurs.

I don’t wear them on Chip. He has a nasty history and doesn’t need the mental grief. We’ll get there if I want to, so far, I don’t care .I do carry a dressage whip with him in place of spurs for refining lateral aids.

I also bake a mean apple pie, like to read Vanity Fair, and love love love my kitty cat we call Owlly. I figure so long as we’re sharing extraneous information that has nothing to do with the OP’s original questions, I’d chime in with those tidbits.