Side saddle people... a little help? Long overdue UPDATE with pics!

[Rubyfree]

My trainer greeted me today with an armful of sidesaddle. I’m the internet savvy ‘kid’ at the barn and she’d like me to do some research. I’m hoping the side saddle folks here can help me out or direct me to a forum that can.

It’s dirty as sin, so I need to clean it up a bit before I get pics, but here is what I know:

It’s a Champion & Wilton. That’s about it. :lol:

It looks pretty darned old, but it appears to be in decent shape other than the “flocking” falling apart. I say “flocking” because it isn’t like flocking I am familiar with (like on western saddles)- it’s more like linen padding. It also seems to have mostly original fittings, or at least ones of the same era, and they are not in great shape. I’m hoping some leather therapy will fix those up.

I know that there are different types of side saddles but don’t know how to tell one from another. Any tell-tale signs I should be looking for? It seems rather large to me, but I haven’t been close to many side saddles.

Is there any way to gauge the age of this thing? I understand that the company is no longer in business.

I will try to get it spiffed up for some glamour shots tonight, but in the mean time can y’all educate me a bit, or direct me to a more appropriate venue? My trainer is terribly curious to learn more about it, and now I am too!

[Fireangel]

Since I am fairly new to sidesaddle myself I will give you some links to people that can help you.

Linda Flemmer of the ISSO
Sue Tobin of Sidesaddleheaven.com (she is so knowledgable!)

Good luck with finding out more. I will tell you the bottom is linen due to the fact that most were ridden without a saddle pad and are still shown that way in the classes today for undersaddle.
Keep us updated on what you find out.

[SidesaddleRider]

The “best” sidesaddles were made in the first half of the 20th century. The makers include Champion & Wilton, Owen, Mayhew, Whippy, Knoud, Hermes, and Martin & Martin. Most of the saddles were stamped with the maker’s name somewhere on the saddle. The C&W’s usually had a uniquely shaped extended flap over the stirrup fitting: http://www.sidesaddle.com/store/saddles/saddle_images/c_w_3/c_w_3_nearside_small.jpg. The later saddles (1920s-1940s) typically had heavier padding on the bottom, as they were primarily used as hunting saddles.

The later made saddles also usually had flatter seats, wider pommels, and more typically doeskin seat/pommels and linen bottoms. Some saddles do have leather bottoms, but they are harder to easily adjust the flocking. Sidesaddles that will actually be ridden in on today’s horses should have a cutaway, so that it settles easily on either side of the withers, and of course have a leaping head.

The American way to measure a sidesaddle is to go from the front of the upright head/pommel to the cantle/back of the seat. Smaller saddles will be in the 18-20" range, average saddles in the 20.5-21.5" range, and longer saddles in the 22-23" range. Seat width is from 12-14" usually. The UK version of measuring is from the cutback to the cantle, and is usually about 4" less than the American length.

[JeanM]

Congrats on the find! You already have been given excellent contacts to find out more about it.

Whatever you do, don’t put it over a stall door, or ungirthed & unattended on a horse’s back, or anywhere it could possibly fall – a broken tree is terminal (and heartbreaking!) If you have to put it on the floor, lay it nearside down.

[SidesaddleRider]

@JeanM;4959959

…a broken tree is terminal (and heartbreaking!)

Not true. A broken tree can be fixed. It is just very expensive to have it repaired.

But yes, be careful when handling it.

[sadlmakr]

Having spent 43 years in the business of restoring old sidesaddles I can say I have seen some pretty badly damaged sidesaddles that I was able to save and make into safe riding sidesaddles. I have saved broken trees and some with cracked bars and rusted points.
The linen is over a wool serge panel that is flocked with wool fibers.
I use wool that is in the roving like what spinners use. What I use comes from England.
The old saying that " A picture is worth a thousand words" hold up here in this situation.
I have saved a lot of famous name sidesaddles that other saddlers would not touch. I have a Western Gathright that is from Virginia that a horse rolled on when it was fairly new back inthe 1880’s. It belonged to the owners great grandmother. She rode out one morning and came back in and tied the horse at the rail and went in the house. Horse had an itchy. Horse laid down and rolled. Horse crushed the tree in the sidesaddle. Saddle hung in the barn for 100 years. The leather is good.
It was sent to me. I took it apart very carefully and the shattered tree I glued back piece by piece with Gorilla Glue.
Now I have to find a treemaker who will copy it to put the new tree in the saddle .
I am determined to save this saddle.
Most sidesaddles are not that bad. Most can be saved with far less work than this one will entail.
There are many other good makes of sidesaddles that are not so well known as the big name saddles. Parkers were good saddles too.
Bach’s are rare but turn up now and then.
Most all of them need new billets and reflocking in the panels.
But they are becoming fewer and fewer and each one that can be saved means someone can ride aside in it.
If I can be of any further help don’t hesitate to contact me.
Regards, sadlmakr

[buck22]

sorry to hijack but… sadlmakr, is there any hope of widening the tree on a ‘modern’ C&W?

[Thomas_1]

Well I can tell you that it’s a good brand. We need photos. In the meantime though, is this of any help:

http://www.sidesaddlerider.com/Champion%20&%20Wilton%20Catalogue.htm

Do you know that side saddle riding and carriage driving sort of go hand in hand? So you might get some response on the driving threads too.

[buck22]

oh Thomas, how neat! Thanks for sharing.

OP, forgot to say congrats on your find, hope you share pix!!!

[sadlmakr]

Sometimes we can spread the points on a sidesaddle.
Unless it is a really narrow sidesaddle.
Sometimes the flocking can be pulled also. I just depends on how much it has to be “eased”.
If you have a flat backed draft cross I doubt it can be spread that far.
regards, sadlmakr

[sadlmakr]

Champion & Wilton is a great sidesaddle. But so are Mayhews and Owens.
Martin & Martins are also good but they made Park seat sidesaddles as well as the Hunting sidesaddle. So you have to be aware of the differences in the Park seat and the Hunting type.
Usually the Park seat were closer contact and much lighter than the Hunting sidesaddle. The Park type were not iron re-enforced in the gullet. They made them as light as possible and to be less heavy than the Hunting type.
Champion & Wilton made a show type Park sidesaddle that only weighted 18 pounds. They were very streamlined and close to the horse.
But you do not want to use a Park/Show type sidesaddle for Hunting and Jumping.
There are also lots of good sidesaddles that were made by other saddlers not so well known. Bach and Parkers and Barkley were good saddles. But they are more rare.
Passier made a very nice sidesaddle before WWII.
But they are also very rare.
Barnsby made some nice sidesaddles as did Smith -Worthington.
So look around and see what turns up.
It is fun looking for them.
regards, sadlmakr

[Rubyfree]

Sorry for the long delay. This summer moved very quickly & I did not!

Finally, PICTURES! A whole album of them! Here!

Some thoughts and observations from attempting to resurrect this bad boy:

-It just seems HUGE to me. Measuring it from the front of the upper head to the center of the cantle, it’s right around 23". The flap is 16.5" wide. The seat is 14". Is this all pretty normal?

-The condition of the flocking/padding is… nonexistent. It’s gone or almost gone everywhere. A couple of pertinent pics:
Under the cantle.
Underside of far flap.
Underside of near flap.

The deterioration of the padding seems to have led to deterioration of the flaps. The near side is much worse than the far.

There’s some tooling on the front of the… flap? Skirt? Part in front of the heads.

What are these holes? There are some on the flaps visible above as well. Bugs? The ones pictured here are on the underside of the mini “head” on the far side.

It’s stamped 1871 in two places; is that a production year or the year the company was founded/patent year?

I’m going to send these off to some of the suggested forums/groups/people as well.

As I mentioned in the OP, it’s my trainers saddle. I am not sure how much she wants to put into restoration. Any idea what it’s value might be, if any, in it’s current shape? Structurally, it does seem sound other than the flocking/padding. The leather is GULPING leather therapy but I think it’s going to come around.

Is the damage repairable? Would it be prohibitively expensive?

Anything else I should know?

[SidesaddleRider]

That is one of the oldest (if not the oldest) C&W sidesaddles that I have seen. It still has the slight 3rd pommel on the offside! And the quilted/stitched padded safe and roller bar stirrup fitting were also an 1800s to early 1900s style. But it has a cutback, so I would date it 1880s-1900. Lillian (sadlmakr) might be able to give you a better date range. The 1871 could be the date of make.

The leather is VERY dry, although it has been kept in immaculate condition, and hence the stitching has all dry-rotted. I would pretty much say that all the underside stitching, billets, webbing, some leather, and the panels will need to be replaced on it. It looks like mice got to the stuffing and serge on the panels, although the serge will simply disintegrate over time too. The holes in the leather are wood worm holes, which will burrow into the saddle going for the tree. The best way to make sure they are dead is to put the saddle in a chest freezer for 24 hours and freeze 'em good.

23" x 14" is a large saddle, and would have been made to fit either a tall (5’8"+) lady or one with a very long thigh.

Yes, all the damage is repairable–but expensive. Without a hands on viewing, I am thinking somewhere in the $750-1200 range. Before putting the money into it, I would want to know what size the tree is. Many of the older saddles were built on a tree that is much narrower than most of today’s horses can wear, although some were built on larger ones.

[Rubyfree]

Thank you very much, sidesaddlerider. The condition of the leather is pretty remarkable to me. Yes, it’s dry- but I’ve seen saddles less than 20 years old in far worse shape. It seems to me that this thing was either very lightly used or extremely well loved. There are NO discernible wear marks of any kind on it. None. Other than the water spots, up top it looks like it could have walked out of a tack store yesterday.

The billets have no wear on them at all. I initially thought that this might mean they had been replaced. Perhaps they were just never used. We’ll never know!

The thing that strikes me about the size of the saddle is it’s overall breadth; the tree, just eyeballing, looks on the narrow side of average. I wouldn’t hesitate to toss it on a TB or other narrow backed horse for a looksy. I’ll measure the gullet as it stands tomorrow and try to get a better idea.

Thanks again. This saddle really has me fascinated and I’m having a blast researching it. Keep the insights coming!

[sadlmakr]

I finally got back here to see the photos of this saddle.
It looks to be from the 1880’s.
It was a high end saddle when new.
Considering it is about 130 years old it is a wonder it is still as good as it is.
Leather conditioner and new panels and billets and it would be a good saddle again.
I have one similar in now to redo the panels and billets.
It look solder than yours but has no name stamped on it.
It will be expensive to restore but could be well worth it if it will fit you and the horse.
JMHO, sadlmakr

[ladybugred]

It certainly is a beautiful saddle, tho in need of some serious TLC.
Can I ask where your trainer found it?

LBR

[Rubyfree]

LBR, I believe she got it for a song at the annual local tack consignment sale. She loves old tack like this, just loves it. I’m not sure if she’s decided what to do with this saddle yet; the repairs may be a bit much financially right now, so it’s still sitting in my living room, looking pretty!