*sigh* is there such a thing as corn-free, soy-free, oat-free grain?

[vxf111]

And for those keeping score at home…

The following are off the list

Feeds
Triple Crown Naturals (oats, alfalfa)
Crypto Aero Horse Feed (oats, timothy, alfalfa)
Haystack special blend (timothy, alfalfa)
Poulin E-Tec Senior (soy, alfalfa)

Nutrena needs to call me back because their ingredients aren’t public (what?) and only the nutritionists can discuss with customers (ORL?). Connamara Crunch’s website keeps crashing and I am not sure I can get that locally anyway. So unless Nutrena comes through (unlikely) I don’t think any of the suggested complete feeds are allergy free. And since I can feed whole ingredients from the feed store in the alternative, I think I am going to go that direction first rather than just try a soy/corn-free complete feed.

Ration balancers
Progressive Pro Advantage (soy)
Buckeye Grow’n’win (soy)
TDI-10 (corn)

Dissapointing that SO MANY of the ration balancers have an allergen in them L:( But the McCauley does not AND it appears you can order it online? So even if no local store carries it, I can get it. So that’s going to have to be the ration balancer, I guess.

I have no explored the suggested supplements yet. Aside from the flax based ones, I suspect many will contain one of the allergens. Also, I am not sure I need them… if I do rice bran + (either beet pulp or barley) + ration balancer-- do I need anything else? He’ll be getting fat, protetin, roughage, and the vitamins/minerals. I will keep him on the Vitamin E and MSM because those seem to be doing well. Exploring the idea of adding Triamino. Not sure I need anything else?

Thanks for all your help, this is kind of rocket science to me.

[Ghazzu]

[QUOTE=vxf111;8445898]

So how on earth do I figure out how much of everything to feed?[/QUOTE]

You start with the horse’s dietary requirements.
Then you calculate what portion of that can be satisfied by the hay you are feeding.
Then you take what is outstanding and determine what can be adequately filled by the available things on your list.
You come up with a recipe and figure out if it’s practical to make it up in small or large batches, and then do it.

If you are interested, PM me.
It might be an academic exercise I’d be willing to pursue for you in the process of formulating a problem set for a class.

[JB]

@vxf111;8445955

Dissapointing that SO MANY of the ration balancers have an allergen in them L:( But the McCauley does not AND it appears you can order it online? So even if no local store carries it, I can get it. So that’s going to have to be the ration balancer, I guess.

Be sure to compare the cost of buying and shipping the M10, to that of getting something like High Point Grass and Nutramino from Horsetech, on a per-serving basis (1lb of the M10, vs 1 serving each of HPG and Nutramino)

if I do rice bran + (either beet pulp or barley) + ration balancer-- do I need anything else?

Unlikely. Most RBs will take care of deficiencies in most hays for most horses. You can even feed 2lb of most RBs to most average horses if he needs a little boost of either nutrition or calories.

He’ll be getting fat, protetin, roughage, and the vitamins/minerals. I will keep him on the Vitamin E and MSM because those seem to be doing well. Exploring the idea of adding Triamino. Not sure I need anything else?

Thanks for all your help, this is kind of rocket science to me.

You’ll want the Nutramino/Tri-Amino no matter which route you go. M10 lacks the protein and lysine that grass balancers have, and if you feed a v/m supplement, it won’t have those either.

[vxf111]

Okay, so here’s my plan (for now)…

Every day (split into 2 meals)…

2lbs rice bran= $1.20/day
1 lb beet pulp shreds= $0.34
2 lbs barley= $0.44
2.5 lbs of McCauley M10*=$1.05

*or another ration balancer assuming I can find something locally

I will also do 1 cup flax, Triamino, Vitamin E, and MSM but I am not factoring that into the calculation because I always bought the supplements before anyway, the barn didn’t buy them.

That’s $3.03/day (not including shipping on the ration balancer if necessary) which is less than the ~$5/day it cost the barn to feel him Sentinel. So I think I can probably ask the barn to order/pay for this feed and they’ll be willing. The only ? is the ration balancer because I don’t want them to have to go online or drive around or anything like that. Let me see what if anything the feed store has by way of ration balancer.

[vxf111]

Oh, McCauley M10 is available from a feed supplier I can easily get to. Not my usual place (or the barn’s usual place) but one I’ve been to before and have no issue going to. MAYBE they would even deliver. Probably not, but I can get there no problem.

[JB]

You have to get rid of the notion of “another ration balancer” They ALL contain large amounts of soy, save for the 2 mentioned here, and you’ve ruled out the TDI-10 because of the corn.

So it’s M10, or a vm supplement, not any other ration balancer.

The rest of the plan sounds like a very reasonable place to start.

[vxf111]

Oh sorry, I keep saying RB when what I really mean more generally is “source of vitamin/minerals.” And I can get the McCauley so that seems like a good thing to use anyway.

BM is getting me orchard grass hay. No problem. And they seem fully on board with my plan, I just have to tell them what I want them to order. And supply some bins/trash cans. Did I mention how great my barn is?

They have always been excellent about food-related special snowflakes… I am appreciative.

LET’S HOPE HE’LL EAT THIS!

[Pocket_Pony]

IMHO, ration balancers are just another thing that feed companies have convinced us that we need. Plain old hay, a vit/min supplement, salt, and something to mix the vitamins in (beet pulp/rice bran/hay pellets, whatever works for your horse) should be all your horse needs, unless it is an extreme case of a very hard keeper.

Mr. PoPo’s Tomato was a big horse - tall, long, lots of bone. He did great on a hay-only diet, with some sort of pellet to mix his vitamins in. Unless your horse is in heavy work (which it sounds like his isn’t) or is an extremely hard keeper (which is sounds like he isn’t), I would think the best thing for him is to find the type of hay that won’t aggravate his allergies, and stick to that to start with. The more you start mixing-and-matching and changing all at once, the less likely you are to be able to identify any new allergens that are bothering him.

Were it my horse, I’d take him off everything grain-related and just do whatever hay he can tolerate and maybe some beet pulp (like 1 lb 1xday) to mix in a vitamin supplement. That’s it.

Sometimes I get on the “I want to feed oats because they sound yummy and I think my horse will like them or at least needs them because that’s what everyone has fed horses for eternity.” Then I go back and read about oats and their appropriateness for a metabolic horse (which I don’t necessarily have, but they could be prone because of breeds) and I just stick with my forage only plan and everyone is great and healthy.

[IPEsq]

Sounds like a good plan. Do you need the flax if you are feeding rice bran?

[JB]

Ration balancers bridge the gap between a v/m supplement, and a full blown regular feed. They are a more economical way to feed when extra calories are not needed. They aren’t magic, but they aren’t just marketing either.

Many grasses are not high enough in protein, let alone lysine, to provide what some to many horses need to do their jobs well. Ration balancers give enough extra to take care of most deficiencies there. v/m supplements don’t.

Most v/ms also don’t have a lot in the way of minerals in terms of amounts, though they do usually have a lot of them.

I agree with going as basic as you can, but most hard working horses need more than what most forages provide.

Flax and rice bran are 2 pretty different things. Rice bran brings calories, but it also brings Omega 6. Flax brings beneficial Omega 3, which IMHO every horse should get if he’s not getting enough fresh grass.

[Equibrit]

Hay and this ?

[vxf111]

FYI Nutrena called back and they offer no products that will fit.

[fordtraktor]

I think if you get your basic stuff (Beet Pulp, Barley, Rice Bran) from the feed store, you could add Uckele’s Sport Horse Grass pellets and Tri Amino, also a Uckele product, and then just have the order delivered to your barn. Then you’d pretty much cover your bases. You could add the flax too if you wanted. Voila, done. I don’t see any soy in the ingredient list for the Sport Horse Grass.

Also, they sell this oil which does not contain soy if you want to add Omega 3s this way: http://equine.uckele.com/fatty-acids/equi-omega-4-1.html

their regular CocoSoya product, which is really nice as well, does contain Soy of course but this one is flax, fish, vit E and coconut oil.

I am a big Uckele fan, they have some really nice products.

Alternatively, I would call Horsetech – they are great about mixing custom supps and can probably make you exactly what you need. I do that for one of my horses and it is very affordable, substantially cheaper than putting together several supplements for his different requirements. I have them do it in a ground flax base as well that gives it a nice feel and heft so it mixes very well.

[vxf111]

[QUOTE=Pocket Pony;8446094]
The more you start mixing-and-matching and changing all at once, the less likely you are to be able to identify any new allergens that are bothering him.[/QUOTE]

I think this is generally not bad advice, but he just had full serum allergy testing. If he was allergic to other things, it would have shown up. My vet thinks it’s safe to assume that orchard grass, beet pulp, rice bran, etc. are things the horse is NOT allergic to. So adding them into his diet should not cause a reaction.

[Mozart]

[QUOTE=vxf111;8446020]
Okay, so here’s my plan (for now)…

Every day (split into 2 meals)…

2lbs rice bran= $1.20/day
1 lb beet pulp shreds= $0.34
2 lbs barley= $0.44
2.5 lbs of McCauley M10*=$1.05

*or another ration balancer assuming I can find something locally

I will also do 1 cup flax, Triamino, Vitamin E, and MSM but I am not factoring that into the calculation because I always bought the supplements before anyway, the barn didn’t buy them.

That’s $3.03/day (not including shipping on the ration balancer if necessary) which is less than the ~$5/day it cost the barn to feel him Sentinel. So I think I can probably ask the barn to order/pay for this feed and they’ll be willing. The only ? is the ration balancer because I don’t want them to have to go online or drive around or anything like that. Let me see what if anything the feed store has by way of ration balancer.[/QUOTE]

I think this sounds like a great plan and the only thing I would add is flax. You do not have to grind it, whole flax works just fine.

Other than the beet pulp, you can probably pre-bag a weeks worth of feed which would go a long way to keeping your barn happy

[IPEsq]

As far as making the barn staff’s life easier, could you pre-bag all the stuff that does not need to be soaked and then they just have to soak and add the beet pulp? That is what I do, even though I’ve switched my horse over to the barn’s feed. He has a lot of powdered supplements at the moment, so it is easier for me to still provide a full “grain” baggie with supplements and then they add water and beet pulp just before dumping into his bucket. You would just need storage space for your bulk items somewhere.

[Palm_Beach]

[QUOTE=Pocket Pony;8446094]
IMHO, ration balancers are just another thing that feed companies have convinced us that we need. Plain old hay, a vit/min supplement, salt, and something to mix the vitamins in (beet pulp/rice bran/hay pellets, whatever works for your horse) should be all your horse needs, unless it is an extreme case of a very hard keeper.[/QUOTE]

I disagree. There is absolutely a time and place for an RB. I use it to balance out the diet of a horse that is on a grass hay only, or as a top dressing for a horse that needs to gain weight, especially in the topline. I’ve had countless horses turn around and gain weight and have a tremendous improvement in coat and hoof quality in 60 days while using an RB plus good hay plus, in come cases, a premium concentrate. I find that once you get them where they need to be wrt condition, you can then cut back on what you are feeding and they stay in great condition. My farrier will swear by my feeding program as I’ve had many crappy footed horses come in and within 60 days they have a much much better foot, no extra “hoof supplement” needed.

And my fatties, who thrive on hay alone, don’t need to have their vit/min supplement “mixed” with anything. They eat it plain, and lick the ground flax out of the tubs.

[Montanas_Girl]

[QUOTE=Pocket Pony;8446094]
IMHO, ration balancers are just another thing that feed companies have convinced us that we need. Plain old hay, a vit/min supplement, salt, and something to mix the vitamins in (beet pulp/rice bran/hay pellets, whatever works for your horse) should be all your horse needs, unless it is an extreme case of a very hard keeper.[/QUOTE]

This couldn’t be further than the truth. Ration balancers are designed to meet the horse’s amino acid, vitamin, and mineral needs when feeding a larger amount (5+ pounds, for most feed companies) of grain is not possible for one reason or another. Commercial vitamin/mineral supplements, in most cases, don’t come close to meeting the mineral needs of an easy keeper at maintenance - never mind a hard keeper, working horse, etc. The best textbook way to balance a ration is to test your hay and add those specific nutrients that are lacking. However, it is often more cost effective and practical for horse owners to simply add a ration balancer to a hay or pasture diet and be done with it.

[WNT]

Look into Platinum Performance for a vit/min supplement too. I had a customer some time ago with a horse with allergies on par with your guy’s. Pretty much everything you’d feed a horse except oats and flax. I looked through the ingredients on every multivitamin we stocked and came up empty. Soy, alfalfa, corn by-products, etc. We ended up suggesting oats and asking their vet about Platinum Performance.

PP is flax based, and I am fairly sure no other ingredients beyond the vitamin and mineral package. I’d start with barley, PP, and probably Coolstance or rice bran for extra calories. Would canola oil be an acceptable source of calories? Most flax and coconut oils for horses are blended with soybean oil for affordability. McCauleys and Triple Crown make straight rice bran oil, but you pay for the purity.

[BilyandJack]

I didn’t read all the responses so it might have been mentioned but purina integri-t is corn and soy free. It may be oat free but don’t quote me on it.