[QUOTE=moving to dc;8442417]
Orchard IS a true species of grass, but unfortunately, here on the East Coast, it seems quite common to call any old field of native (uncultivated) grass that has been baled “orchard” grass. I see it all the time…
In the Midwest, we at least call mixed native grass hay “prairie” hay vs. calling it by a specific species that it is not…[/QUOTE]
And here in the West, we call a mixed native grass field “Meadow grass”, “Pasture Grass” or just plain “Grass”. Orchard Grass is a specific species (and is more expensive;)).
So if OP can find a reliable source of Orchard grass, it may work. But finding a concentrate is going to be tougher! And this kind of sums it up:
I don’t know what area of the country you are in, but Poulin grain makes E-Tec Senior which has no corn, oats, or soy in it, and I believe their regular E-Tec is the same. If you go to their website, www.poulingrain.com, they have under resources an allergy chart which lists which grains don’t have various ingredients.
They make rice protein powder for humans as an alternative to soy and whey. Rice bran is used a lot in feeds. I wonder why they can’t use rice for protein as well?
[QUOTE=whbar158;8441369]
I don’t think you are going to find a good commercial product that works. I think you are going to have to mix up your own with beet pulp, vit/min supplement and possibly rice bran/oil for more fat. It sucks but I don’t see another way, barely could be another way to go as well for more energy if you need it.[/QUOTE]
IME, doing this kind of mix is cheaper than buying a complete feed, and it is not difficult at all. Scoop, scoop, scoop, fill with hot water to soak the beet pulp, let sit, and feed.
Yes, there is something different about timothy hay. I remember when we were kids, my sister had immediate skin allergy reactions to timothy, even just tossing her horse a flake, but never to “local” hay, meaning mixed grasses.
A horse can do very well on a nice “local” hay, plus beet pulp and vitamin supplement. The beet pulp will give some extra calories and be a carrier for the supplement. If the horse doesn’t need extra calories, then just feed a minimal amount of beet pulp.
I have a motion that is KILLING ME but is due Monday. I am following and I promise detailed responses when I come up for air. This is very helpful. I have further conferred with the New Bolton vet I saw Monday and my local vet and have some ideas to run by the group. But first… this motion!
Are there any local to your area commercial feeds? In the PNW, we have NW Horse Supplement, which is soy and corn free, hence why I can give it to my sensitive horse. We also have a brand called Haystack that makes hay/beet pulp/rice bran/flax steamed pellet with no other additives or preservatives that I give to the horses that need more weight. That said, they are both NW specific brands, so I doubt they would work for you…
I don’t know if someone already suggested Cool Stance or not, but its coconut copra. Basically the meat of the coconut after it has been processed for oil. The calories are mostly from good fats and it is an excellent feed with good amino acids in it that promote a nice topline. I feed it to my horses and neither has any restrictions, I just really like the feed. It is available to order online if you can’t find it locally.
Even though it may be a bit complicated why not buy Plain SPECIFIC grains i.e. just Barley, Oats Flax seed Hay (Orchard, Alfalfa Beet Pulp) pellets and mix your own grains adding a supplement specific to your region. Not a fan of most pre mixed commercial grains especialluy the ones made form “procedded grain products” Kind of like people eating meat by-products (ICK)
Meat by-products include things that aren’t…meat Kidneys. Liver. Stomach. Ok, that last one is truly ICK, but you get my drift
Wheat middlings are a grain by-product. There’s nothing inherently unsafe or unsanitary about them, you just don’t know specifically what they are. Not knowing what they are is why I won’t feed them, I want to know the exact ingredients, not that I think they are unsafe.
But I agree, since the OP can’t/shouldn’t feed any of those feeds with any forage or grain by-products, and there are precious few that fit the criteria, the easiest thing it is to get individual ingredients and make up a custom feed.
[QUOTE=hunterprincez;8441969]
Can you tell me what your horses symptoms were? We are just now heading down the long route to find out what seems to be causing my horses allergies. My guy is having respiratory issues plus horrendous hives we are barely able to control at the moment.[/QUOTE]
This is Somerset we’re talking about (for those who “know” him from the boards). 1500 horse (well, 1505 on the New Bolton scale on Monday). His symptoms were extreme itchiness and head tossing. He had a nasal passage scoping, head x-rays, eyes checked, teeth checked, guttural pouch checked—and everything came back normal until we did the allergy testing. He lit up crazy sensitive to corn and soy. Less sensitive but also sensitive to oats, alfalfa, and timothy. Mild sensitivity to “feed mill dust” and one very specific mold spore (random).
He is in light to moderate work. Ridden for about 45 minutes 5-days/week. Eats 5 large flakes of mixed timothy/alfalfa NY hay (mostly timothy) and gets 4lbs 10oz Blue Seal Sentinel feed 2x/day. Was getting a flax based hoof supplement, Smartbreathe, MSM, Vitamin E supplement, and a slosh of soy oil (the barn loves all the horses to be on oil and I didn’t feel like arguing). Hay was already being soaked because he dunks it, so they soak it to cut down on the mess he makes. Sentinel has soy as the first and fourth ingredient. It is 12% protein, 12% fat. His weight was good on this ration. Not crazy hunter fat—but not ribby either. He is not an overly picky eater but he’s not a piggy eater either.
This is actually not a bad idea, but I think he is a 1500 lbs horse in work and I am scared he would really drop weight rapidly going into winter on only grass hay. He eats hay but he’s not the type who will eat an indefinite amount. The vet at new Bolton said try to eliminate the corn/soy, start allergy shots for the alfalfa/timothy, switch to grass hay and steam it if possible, and let’s see how that goes in terms of food allergens. I agree that the “one at a time” introduction approach would be the more scientific way to go but I don’t want him to be uncomfortable in the meantime and I am worried this BIG HORSE would not do ok on just grass hay.
The vet is hopeful. The horse is also going to go on allergy shots for the things you CAN treat that way… which leaves only corn/soy/oats on the “gotta’ treat with diet” list—and we’re hoping that since the oats was a much less sensitive response, a little oats would be less triggering.
As frustrating as this is,I have a couple good things in my favor. My barn is WONDERFUL. If I can GET it, they will feed it—even if it’s a pain to store and mix up. And they will make sure he eats his food. They seem willing to steam the hay etc. even if that’s a pain.
AND… MY barn is full of grass hay—that I grew on my farm and that the farmer grew around the corner. I know exactly what’s in that because I planted it—orchard grass and nothing else. If I had to, I could swap some of the boarding facility’s hay for this hay and then I know he’d be having orchard grass. I can’t just GIVE orchard grass to him or else I’ll run out of hay for my retirees—I only have so much. BUT I have a readily available source of consistent orchard grass that I know the origin of. I didn’t test it, because I just grew it for my retirees—but I have it.
Here is my list of things to look into based on this thread…
“Commercial feeds” (though I wonder whether some of these aren’t ration balancers?! It’s hard to tell when there’s little info offered online)
Triple Crown Naturals
Crypto Aero Horse Feed
Nutrena Pro Force Fiber
Uckele’s High Point Grass
Nutrena Safe Choice Special Care
Connemara Crunch
Haystack special blend
Renew gold
Coolstance
Poulin E-Tec Senior
Ration balancers
McCauley’s M10 (ration balancer)
Ration balancers from Progressive & Buckeye
Uckele Sport Horse Grass Pellets
TDI-10
I am actually starting to think I like the idea of feeding just single grains with appropriate supplement/fat/ration balancer added because then I’ll know all the allergens are OUT. But it has to be something I can get locally and reliably. The boarding barn is WONDERFUL but they are not going to drive to Lancaster every week to buy foodstuffs. They order from a large standard feed store that stocks the “usual suspects.” I have a nearby local feedstore that will order stuff for me but they’re small and really only do Purina and Tribute. And I have Tractor Supply-- not sure if they will special order but they do a couple brands–Purina, Nutrena, Manna Pro, etc.
High Point Grass, Coolstance, and Renew Gold are supplements rather than feeds, not even ration balancers. HPG is a vit/min supplement, and the other 2 are fat supplements
Sporthorse Grass Pellets is also a v/m supplement.
All ration balancers other than the M10 and TDI-10 (and possibly 1 other, I’m not positive) contain soy. You can still use those 2, but I’d definitely add Nutramino/Tri-Amino to the mix.
Tri-Amino and Nutramino are the same thing, just 2 different companies. 10gm lysine, 5 methionine, and 2 threonine. I’d consider them all but a must for mixing your own. The only reason I wouldn’t necessarily use them is if your hay tests high enough in protein and lysine, but most grass hays don’t
In all the stories I’ve heard of feed stores not reliably carrying something, I don’t think I’ve heard that said about beet pulp LOL Barely any about alfalfa pellets, which is a great way to add calories, but you can’t do that
Almost everyone carries some sort of fat supplement. I’d do a solid form - rice bran of some variety - over oil.
Purina has Amplify, their fat supplement. You might ask if that particular store carries Max-E-Glo, which is a fairly common fortified rice bran product.
TSC is your best bet, I’d guess. They have Purina and Nutrena, so Amplify and Empower Boost for the fat supplements. I know they carry Max-E-Glo as well so you can pick whichever is cheaper. They also carry beet pulp.
I don’t think TSC carries Amplify, and depending on the area you might not have any luck getting Empower Boost (my local TSC had the same two bags sitting on a shelf for YEARS. One of them even had moisture penetrate the bag and went all soft and mushy. And it sat there like that FOR AGES.)
Plus Empower Boost has corn - I think Amplify might as well - so it would be a no-go for you anyway.
But beet pulp, Max-e-glo, and Standlee products should be safe enough.
Feed store that supplies my barn has many of these items…
Beet pulp- $13/bag* pellets or $17/bag shreds (with or without molasses)
Rice bran- $30/bag
Steamed crimped barley- $11/bag
Flax- $36/bag or $1.10/pound
They did not have any of the ration balancers listed and I didn’t ask about the supplements because I still need to research and find out which if any are sans the allergens.
Price-wise, the Sentinel is $21/bag
So how on earth do I figure out how much of everything to feed? In an ideal world, I’d try to have the fewest individual bags/ingredients to make life easiest on the barn staff and I’d keep the price as close to the Sentinel as I can. The rice bran is expensive, but that seems like the best option in terms of fat (the flax slightly pricier anyway). In terms of “fill/roughage” the choices are beet pulp or barley. Price difference is negligible. In an ideal world I’d use just one. How do I know he’s getting sufficient protein? I suspect he’d like the taste of the beet pulp better (molasses) but that requires soaking and the barley doesn’t.
And then I need to source a ration balancer and add that. I don’t mind if that’s something I have to go buy myself 1x a month and deliver, I can store it in my barn in the meantime if necessary. So I just need to find someone who stocks a no-Somerset-allergen ration balancer.
In terms of supplements, I will continue with everything but the Smartbreathe which probably has an allergen and is likely no longer necessary since I am going to medicate the allergy.
*all bags are 50 lbs bags
So how on earth do I figure out how much of everything to feed?
How do I know he’s getting sufficient protein? [/QUOTE]
Most brands of rice bran have a suggested daily serving I think usually around 1-2 pounds per day. I would expect the other feeds to as well. You’ll probably have to play around a bit when you pick what you want to try.
RB weighs in at approximately 1200 calories per pound, making it a very effective weight building feed. It is not as high in calories as oil (4000 calories/pound) because oil is 100% fat while RB contains other things such as fiber, some starch, and protein. Rice bran is a supplement that will provide horses with added fat, vitamin E, and energy. The makeup of this little known feed stuff is about 20 percent of fat, one percent of fiber, eight percent of protein, but 65 percent of starch, the remaining six percent are fillers.
I wouldn’t look to flax for real calories, but you might want to add it for the Omega 3 that he’s not getting from grass - 1c/day.
Rice bran - 1-2lb/day
Beet pulp - the problem is the volume once it’s soaked. Easiest soaking is the shreds. 1lb of most shreds is about 9c, to give you an idea of volume, and then that expands when soaked - expands a LOT if you soak for longer. So, you’ll have to take that into account if he’s got limited time to eat.
Barley - think as little as possible for now, 1-4lb maybe. I only say that for the sake of keeping actual grains low. You’ll just have to start somewhere with this and rice bran and beet pulp and see if you need to increase.
Increases will be guessing. Ideally you’d increase the forage (beet pulp) first, but then you get into more time to eat. I would not go past 2lb for the rice bran.
And then I need to source a ration balancer and add that. I don’t mind if that’s something I have to go buy myself 1x a month and deliver, I can store it in my barn in the meantime if necessary. So I just need to find someone who stocks a no-Somerset-allergen ration balancer.
Unless you can get the M10 or TDI-10, you’re not going to be able to use a ration balancer because of the high soy. You’re looking at a v/m supplement and Nutramino
Sufficient protein? Unless the hay is poor quality, between ample hay, and the Nutramino, he should be good.
Rice bran by itself won’t provide much Vit E, but stabilized rice bran will (stabilized with mixed tocopherols almost all the time)
Make sure it’s fortified too, which means added calcium, since you’re feeding a grass diet. Max-E-Glo is both stabilized and fortified. Most commercial rice bran products made for horses are as well. Exceptions tend to be in areas where alfalfa is the predominant forage, then they aren’t fortified.
Kidneys. Liver. Stomach. Ok, that last one is truly ICK, but you get my drift 
