significance of high leptin

[2miniB]

I’m trying to figure out the significance of my old mare’s continued high leptin. My vet didn’t know, and the Yahoo group didn’t have an answer for me.

My mare is an old pony (~25-30 years old) and not able to work due to an old injury. She lives in a dry lot w/ 2 minis and does a decent job of self-exercising. I plan to increase the dry lot size this year, so she has more room to move.

She first started having metabolic issues 5 years ago. She got extremely fat while being boarded. I brought her home and she’s been here since. At that time, she had a bcs 9 and weight taped at over 900lbs (13.3hh pony). Today she’s a 6 and weight tapes around 730lbs.

I had blood work done on her 5 years ago and she had an insulin of 80 (normal 10-40) and leptin of 11.19 (normal 1-4). Today, her insulin is 28.5 but her leptin hasn’t changed much (10.14). Is this high leptin significant in any way?

Her current diet is local grass hay with an NSC of 5.2% (25lbs split between her and 2 minis every day), 2 cups of timothy cubes and a mineral supplement.

[beowulf]

consult with your vet, but i have heard that supplementing with l-carnitine can help bring high leptin down for horses with metabolic disorders.

IIRC, it’s common for IR types to have high leptin resistance.

[JB]

The high leptin goes right along with being IR. In addition to being insulin resistant, they also end up leptin-resistant. What I don’t know is why some IR horses end up thin - those “hard keepers” often don’t eat enough, which says they have plenty of leptin sensitivity, but maybe their leptin issue is already screwed up

Have you tried Thryo-L with this horse? Leptin resistance has a hormonal component.

There’s also a link between leptin resistance and a zinc deficiency. Generally also where there’s a zinc deficiency there’s a copper deficiency. A hay-only diet may be too low in some minerals, especially when the hay is grown in “deficient” soil - soil high in red clay has a lot of iron which means the forage is low in copper and zinc, for example

The L-carnatine (ALCAR) supplementation is a good one to look at as well.

[Renn_aissance]

[QUOTE=beowulf;8101704]
consult with your vet, but i have heard that supplementing with l-carnitine can help bring high leptin down for horses with metabolic disorders.

IIRC, it’s common for IR types to have high leptin resistance.[/QUOTE]

It was hardly done in a scientific fashion, but supplementation with L-Carnitine was part of the equation that brought my horse’s high leptin levels into mid-range of normal (I don’t remember the figures off the top of my head.) People would look at this horse and think “Cushings, IR, hypothyroid” but those tests always came back in normal range (actually his thyroid function is excellent) and I struggled to get his weight down; he was 200lb overweight while dry-lotted, eating soaked hay and a literal handful of TC Lite, and working hard for at least an hour a day 6 days a week. He’s now a 4-5 BCS on half the work, turned out on grass even in spring, eating the full recommended daily amount of his TC Lite and as much hay as he cares to eat. His leptin levels stay in normal range. I was skeptical to try it in the first place given the lack of empirical support for it, but at less than $10 a month it was a cheap experiment and as far as I am concerned it is one of the most important parts of his care routine at this point.

[Katy_Watts]

[QUOTE=JB;8102079]
The high leptin goes right along with being IR. [/QUOTE]

Not always. My mother and daughter pair of IR ponies both tested very low in leptin. Test done by LSU who developed the test. But then they were the thin kind of IR, and fed free choice native grass hay that tested 7-9 % NSC.

Just goes to show that hyperinsulinemia comes in several forms. and one size does not fit all.

[JB]

[QUOTE=Katy Watts;8103954]
Not always. My mother and daughter pair of IR ponies both tested very low in leptin. Test done by LSU who developed the test. But then they were the thin kind of IR, and fed free choice native grass hay that tested 7-9 % NSC.

Just goes to show that hyperinsulinemia comes in several forms. and one size does not fit all.[/QUOTE]

That’s why I also said the following

@JB;8102079

What I don’t know is why some IR horses end up thin - those “hard keepers” often don’t eat enough, which says they have plenty of leptin sensitivity, but maybe their leptin issue is already screwed up

[2miniB]

Thanks everyone.

I have tried ALCAR with her, and it didn’t have any positive outward effect. If anything, her fat pads “blew up” more when I had her on it.

Her thyroid function was tested back in September, and it was normal. So I’m really reluctant to give her Thyro-L.

The hay here is very low in zinc and high in iron. However, I have a custom mineral supplement made up to balance out they hay I feed…so I’m assuming any zinc deficiency issues are taken care of. It has zinc, magnesium, copper and selenium, since my hay is low in all of those minerals.

She’s a very easy keeper IR horse. Always has been.

[JB]

If she’s still overweight, sometimes (!) it’s still helpful to use Thyro-L to get some weight off. Being overweight has its own inherent health risks so if the diet isn’t getting it all done, a little chemical help isn’t the end of the world. YOu just have to carefully monitor.

Do you have the analysis of the custom mix? If all it’s doing is bringing the Zn (for example) up to what the hay should have, but is ignoring the fact that the hay is still high in Fe, it may still result in the horse not having enough Zn. Same with Cu, since those 3 have a direct relationship.

[2miniB]

She’s on the heavier side of a healthy weight now. Body score is a six, and I can actually feel ribs. I’d love it if I could get her to a 5, but I’m not sure that’s going to be possible.

The custom mix is individual measures of zinc, copper, magnesium and selenium. I said ‘custom mix’, because its shorter and easier to say than individual measures of zinc, copper, magnesium and selenium that change depending on the year’s hay. The computer I have the analysis on isn’t working right now, so I don’t have access to it. I am fairly certain that it does account for mineral ratios.

[ntoeventing]

What is she eating?

[2miniB]

Most of her diet is local grass hay in slow feeders. I put out 1-1.5 bales a day (~half in the morning, ~half in the afternoon) for a total of 25-35lbs for 3 horses…this mare I’m talking about (13.3hh ~740lb pony), a 34" ~300lb mini, and a 32" ~225lb mini.

This is the analysis on the hay.

Moisture 9%
Dry Matter 91%
DE 0.78 Mcal/lb
Crude protein 7.6%
Estimated Lysine 0.26%
Liginin 4.9%
ADF 39.5%
NDF 67.7%
WSC 6.3%
ESC 5.0%
Starch 0.2%
NFC 10.5%
Crude Fat 1.5%
Ash 3.8%

Calcium 0.22%
Phosphorus 0.22%
Magnesium 0.10%
Potassium 1.19%
Sodium 0.023%

Iron 64ppm (unusually low for what I usually get)
Zinc 15ppm
Copper 5ppm
Manganese 23ppm
Molybdenum 0.7ppm

She gets her minerals and a couple herbs mixed with water and syringe fed. I don’t remember amounts off the top of my head.

Supplements
Turmeric (arthritis)
Eleuthero (adaptogen)
Marshmallow (helps mixture gel)
Psyllium (helps mixture gel)
AAKG (hoof circulation)
Probiotic
Zinc
Copper
Magnesium
Selenium

At feeding time she gets 3 cups timothy cubes plus 1tsp salt. That’s the bare minimum I can feed her to keep her busy while the minis are eating. She’s really finicky about salt, and I can’t get more than that into her.

[2miniB]

Just curious if anyone has any feedback on the hay I’m feeding.