Sizing bradoon and weymouth for a double?

[Lieslot]

This is so confusing, in several articles and even on Neue Schule’s website I read the bradoon should be slighter bigger than the weymouth, however…
My horse is currently in a 135cm double jointed Fager eggbutt snaffle, so I read up about doubles on their website and it states the complete opposite, meaning the weymouth should be a size bigger than the bradoon.

I checked their sizing and I guess I could go down one snaffle size for the bradoon, being 130cm and use a 135cm for the weymouth, similar as his current eggbutt?
Or else go up on both, 140cm bradoon and 145cm weymouth?

I am confused.
If I were to go with Neue Schule (unlikely, since he prefers the light titanium bits) seems I’d need a 140cm bradoon and 133cm weymouth.

Anyone experience with Fager bits as a double? Or any suggestions?

[Jackie_Cochran]

I use Fager bits with my double bridle, and I have been using them for at least 3 years.

Be prepared for a novel.

Back story, Bingo the first horse I used Fager bits with a double bridle was an elderly QH who was horribly conformed for fine riding, he had a low set neck, he was croup high, at 14 hands his throatlatch was thicker both up and down and side to side than that of a much larger draft horse stallion, and he was assigned to me as a lesson horse because he had everybody else’s number (balking, backing up large distances, loved the gate, defiant, and did not see any reason why he should ever obey his rider.)

I started off with a snaffle and finally got him to realize that I was not going to torture him at all. He ended up being having a rather soft mouth once he relaxed. My riding teacher got bored watching me ride him and I ended up on another horse for a few months. When that ended I asked for Bingo back, much to my riding teacher’s relief because he would still take advantage of beginners. I asked her permission to use a double bridle since Bingo had a rather long smile and had plenty of room in his mouth for two bits. I started him off with a 4 3/4" stainless steel Cambridge mouth Weymouth curb and a 5" three piece lozenge stainless steel bradoon, what every equitation book I have recommended.

Then I discovered Fager bits and my riding teacher was willing for me to try the titanium bits. I started off with the 125mm Fager Victoria mullen mouth curb (no longer made) and a 130mm Fager Madeleine double jointed bradoon. Everything went fine, Bingo LIKED the titanium bits, his mouth softened up even further and I had no problems until I got inspired to try the 135mm Fager Bianca three piece snaffle with a center roller titanium snaffle with regular sized rings. Bingo was pretty good but he obviously was not totally comfortable. I e-mailed Fager and the lady told me that after a lot of experimentation they now advocate that the curb bit be wider than the bradoon so that the curb bit would not interfere with the action of the bradoon. I had already bought a 135mm Fager Victoria Weymouth curb, I switched and the problems disappeared. My riding teacher was very pleased with Bingo’s improvement.

Well Bingo died (he was in his late twenties) and my next lesson horse was MJ, a QH with a very short “smile.” Before I would not have put him in a double bridle because his mouth did not have much room, but with the wider Weymouth curb I did not have any of the anticipated problems. I have been riding MJ with a double bridle for over a year with the Weymouth curb wider than the bradoon, he likes it and my riding teacher told me that she does NOT want me to switch back to just a snaffle bit (everybody else rides him in a snaffle.) I ride another horse at another stable, and her owner also lets me ride her horse with the double bridle Fager bits with the Weymouth wider than the bradoon, and this lady also told me she does not want me to go back to just the snaffle.

When the Fager Alice three piece with a roller in the center titanium bradoon (basically the Fager Bianca with bradoon sized rings) came out I switched from the Fager three piece Madeleine titanium bradoon to both horses’ enthusiastic approval, they LIKE the little roller in the center.

I should have bought at least two more of the Fager Victoria curb bits because WITH MY HANDS (I have MS, hand tremor and I often cannot tell where my hands are) these horses do not like me using the other Fager Weymouths I tried. The Fager Elisabeth was sort of OK but both the horses refused to relax fully into the bit, the Fager Felicia Weymouth was not good at all with my hands. I’ve ridden the mare I tried the Felicia on for over 10 years with maybe 10 different bits and the Felicia was the only one that the mare begged her owner to take out of her mouth. I also have a Fager Sofia titanium Weymouth curb, but after the reaction I got with the Fager Felicia I have decided not to try it on the horses I ride now.

I LOVE the Fager titanium bits, the horses LOVE most of the Fager titanium bits, my riding teachers really like seeing me ride their lesson horses with my Fager bits double bridle, so long as I use the Fager Victoria Mullen mouth Weymouth. I have not used the Fager “replacement” for the Victoria, the Fager Diana Weymouth (much more curved mullen mouth than the Victoria) since I am still recovering financially from the Fager Weymouths the horses tell me I am not good enough to use (other horses may like them, these two horses do not.) Again I emphasize that my hands have PROBLEMS, these other Weymouths can probably get very good results with riders whose hands are steadier than mine (no hand tremors etc…)

The double bridle bits work VERY WELL with the Weymouth wider than the bradoon and I plan to use the wider Weymouth curb the rest of my life no matter what metal the bit is made of, unless the horse I ride cusses me out or my riding teachers tell me otherwise.

I wish they still made the Fager Victoria Weymouth, the horses have no real objections to it, if my hands are good that day they will reach out and take contact with it and keep contact with it when I drop the bradoon rein and just keep contact with the Weymouth, and if my hands are not good that day they have minor complaints (raising their head some and looking unhappy.) So long as I ride with a sagging curb rein I can use the Fager Victoria Weymouth and the Fager Alice bradoon no matter how bad my hands are that day.

I ride Forward Seat, not dressage, and the horse accepting the bits I use is EXTREMELY important to me. I want the horse to move cheerfully with its nose stuck out, relaxed mouth, relaxed poll, relaxed tongue and relaxed neck, reaching out for contact confidently and cheerfully. I do not do collection.

Sorry for the novel. I hope you find something you can use in it.

[blue_heron]

Not sure what Fager is saying, the common rule of thumb is that bridoon should be 1/4-1/2 in bigger than your curb. Sometimes you fit the bridoon a little higher in the mouth than a regular snaffle to accomodate both bits and having the bridoon longer means less pinching and less bit rings pressed against the face. The curb should not be moving left and right in the mouth and wont be pinching as the cheeks are static. I always use the same snaffle size for my bridoon and go down 1/4-1/2 in for the curb.

[see_u_at_x]

OK, I thought it was just me when I was reading those websites trying to figure out bits for my horse because I was incredibly confused as well.

[Jackie_Cochran]

I had read all I could find about the double bridle in books. ALL the books say that the bradoon should be the size of the horse’s regular snaffle and the curb 1/4" less wide. I thought it had been dictated by the equivalent of a deity.

Then I ran into the lesson horse Bingo. Bingo did not give a d@mn about what people had written in books. Bingo DID NOT LIKE wrinkles on the corners of his mouth. With his long “smile” I could accommodate his preferences with a regular width small ringed bradoon, but when I tried the regular ringed snaffle problems appeared (sucking back, absolute refusal to relax to the Fager Bianca snaffle like he did when I used it alone, and he did not want to cooperate with me.) I put the wider Weymouth curb on him and he was back to his version of sweetness and light (ha, ha, ha.)

I went back to my books after the e-mail from Fager. I reread everything. Then I realized something, these rules for how to fit double bridles were developed by cavalrymen to use while the rider was carrying and using a weapon, so the riders rode one-handed. I can really see the purpose for the old rules for riding one-handed into combat wielding sword, spear, or shooting a pistol. The curb mouth piece can easily become “wedged” in the horse’s mouth if it is wider than the bradoon, causing the horse distress in his mouth.

Then I tried it on Cider, a mare I have been riding over a decade, who has a good, sensitive mouth and was always, always, always ready to cuss me out if the bit or how I handled the bit do not meet with her approval. Cider has had zero complaints about the wider Weymouth (except with the Fager Felicia Weymouth, she hated that bit).

We no longer ride into battle on our horses. The most that we wield is a crop or dressage whip, and unless the rider is handling the hounds during a fox hunt most English riders who use the double bridle ride with two hands, different from the cavalrymen. We riders who have good hands can prevent the curb mouthpiece from being “wedged” at a side-to-side angle in the horse’s mouth.

This is not new. 20 or 30 years ago I remember looking with disapproval at the picture of an Arabian in a double bridle where I could see that the Weymouth curb was decidedly wider than the bradoon. Now, remembering that picture, it has occurred to me that maybe than horse’s trainer had listened to this horse about its double bridle bits preferences and adapted the norm so his horse would be happier.

This is not the first time that I have questioned the “wisdom” in bit books. After using the Dr. Bristol for years on sensitive mouthed horses with success I read a bit book telling me it was a horribly brutal bit. I experimented across my hand, if the center plate is lower toward the horse’s muzzle it IS a brutal bit. But if it is put on the bridle like I put it on the bridle, with the center plate angled higher to the horse’s muzzle it is a very humane bit that the horses I ride had no problems with until my MS made my hands much worse.

AND with the wider Weymouth I can adapt the double bridle so much easier on the horses that DO NOT LIKE constant poll pressure from the bradoon hanger that is tight enough to cause wrinkles on the corners of the horse’s mouth. With the less tight bradoon hanger the horses are much more sensitive when I mildly tweak my curb reins and we are both much happier. My riding teachers are fine with my double bridles, how I use the double bridles, and they like the results.

[Lieslot]

Thank you Jackie; very helpful your story.

I will give their suggestion a try and go a size bigger on the weymouth vs the bradoon.
I’m leaning towards the Elisabeth weymouth with the Maria bradoon, since he currently has the Maria fixed ring.
The Diana weymouth has my interest as well.

I hope to get it right, those bits are so expensive!!

Thx Blue Heron, indeed that’s precisely what I had read as well, until I read the Fager advice. I hope they got it right .

[blue_heron]

Do report back if the smaller Weymouth makes a difference! I am hesitant to believe anyone selling something who goes against the grain and claims they have the secret recipe-- smells like marketing to me, but I remain curious.

In the meantime my horse and I will carry on with our bridoon 1/4" larger than our curb.