Nothing to add but jingles. I have a barnmate who had to retire her gelding because he wouldn’t sleep. Hoping you find a solution and will be following!
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Totally left field, and I would continue to think there is something underlying, but have you tried teaching how to lay down? I’m not saying it would work, but maybe worth a try? Teaching him it’s okay to lay down and stay there.
Continued jingles for you.
Thanks! I actually saw that on the Horses with Narcolepsy and Sleep Deprivation FB group too! Might be worth a try. I haven’t tried to teach him directly, but I’ve been doing the Warwick Schiller connection groundwork that often results in the horse feeling emotionally comfortable lying down. So far he just wants to stand next to me and ask for scritches though.
@Simkie and @starsandsun, how long did it take you to see a difference after you started EPM treatment and cervical shockwave, respectively?
We’re two weeks out from shockwave and saw zero effect. Not sure if that means he needs more treatments or the addition of other modalities, but I was hoping for at least a little something to show me I’m on the right track. The day before he was due for treatment #2 my 5-year-old maimed himself in the trailer and I got hit with a $2,800 hospital bill and at least two weeks of stall rest, so treatment #2 hasn’t happened. If I knew it would help I would obviously do another treatment, but it’s hard to throw more money at it willy nilly. I’m disappointed to have seen zero change in him at all.
We’re also a little over one week into EPM treatment with Protazil pellets. I wish I had discussed compounded meds with the vet but he’s hard to pin down and I didn’t realize it was going to cost $860 for less than a month! 
The young horse’s injury also spurred an impromptu experiment in environmental change, because I temporarily moved my sleepless horse to a friend’s farm where he can keep getting turnout. It’s pretty similar to my farm in that there are only two other horses, but he doesn’t have stall neighbors and he’s getting solo overnight turnout next to a friend instead of in a small group. Maybe that will help, or maybe there’s some random environmental thing that bothers him at home but not there–like my neighbors’ awful dogs that chased him in my field once and bark in the wooded area behind my barn all the time? The only problem is I can’t spy on him with my cameras during the day so I don’t know if he’s still sleep crashing, though I assume he is. I haven’t seen any obvious sign of either lying down or falling.
It’s not ideal that EPM treatment and the new barn happened at the same time, but my young horse wasn’t kind enough to give me a day’s notice that he was going to put himself on stall rest. Plus I wanted to do at least a couple weeks of EPM treatment before taking him to New Bolton, in case it solved the problem.
Our appointment at New Bolton is next week and I’m feeling very anxious and hopeless about it. I’m afraid we’ll do all the things and find no physical reason why this horse won’t sleep, so I’ll be stuck with massive unreimbursed vet bills because there’s no diagnosis, and my horse still won’t be sleeping. Or we’ll find something or a bunch of somethings that could be a problem or could not be and will spend a bunch of time and money going down rabbit holes, and my horse still won’t be sleeping.
Also, Vet #1 and Dr Johnson at New Bolton have said different things about the significance of him rolling comfortably. Vet #1 says that doesn’t mean he doesn’t have neck pain. Dr Johnson said, “If he never rolls or appears to struggle in the way he lies down or gets up, that could support pain (possibly cervical) as a root cause of his abnormal sleep behavior.” I don’t know what to believe, and the more I deal with veterinary issues the less faith I have in anyone.
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Hey there - I’m so sorry you’re feeling forlorn. After dealing for almost a year with a horse that wanted to die, I know how frustrating and overwhelming it can be.
So … shockwave. I used shockwave first after a C5-6 neck injection, and in conjunction with weekly massage to stretch that area out. The multiple modalities approach gave me phenomenal results but I cannot tease one out from the others. I have since used it only on is back, where within a week after the second treatment I thought he seemed more comfortable and more willing to lift his back. I don’t think I saw much obvious improvement after only one in his back, though.
I sure do hope they find something … my experience at NBC is that the findings ‘were not significant and should not be the cause of discomfort’, just like at Leesburg and in many other xray/ultrasound exams. Yet, when I treated specifically the one spot with arthritis, the world changed.
Oh - I can’t remember if you’ve done a pain trial? I used banamine 2 hours before riding to determine if he improved with some discomfort removed (yes, he did), maybe your vet would consider a low level of pred over a few weeks to see if it changes anything?
I think it was two ish weeks before I started seeing bedding on the horse and signs of lying down in the stall. We used the FarmVet ponazuril powder, levimasole and oil.
Do you not see marks on him typically when he’s falling down? The horses I’ve had that do that regularly beat the sh!t out of their fetlocks and develop bedsores really quickly (overnight, usually!)
I wonder if there’s any sort of tracker thing you can attach to him that would report on his up/down time. I know there’s a halter, but it’s a ton of dollars. Maybe one of the dog trackers…?
Thank you! Two weeks is what someone else said to me about EPM symptoms improving too, so I’m going to cross my fingers for the next week!
Nope! His fetlocks are perfect. When he has near-falls he sits back instead of tipping forward, and he typically catches himself before going all the way down. I’ve only seen signs of him being down twice (bedding on his belly once and a mushed manure pile the second time). Both times I checked the camera and found he had started to sit down then flopped onto his side or his hind legs had buckled. That was before I moved him obviously. I can also sometimes see tracks in the bedding from him sliding a front leg sideways to catch himself, but not every day even when I see him catching himself on camera. I haven’t seen anything in the bedding at the new barn either but sometimes they are kind enough to pick my stall midday and sometimes there’s a strong breeze through the rear door.
Hope your appointment this week brings you some answers. Sending all the positive energy your way!
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@Libby2563 Sorry you’re going through all this. I had a horse that sleep-crashed and we never quite figured it out (I retired him before we did nearly as much as you did, though).
A few thoughts as I read through the thread…
- Sometimes sleep dep/insomnia in humans doesn’t get resolved, either, and I don’t think there’s any evidence to suggest we know more about it in horses. Not that you shouldn’t try, but I would keep in mind that you may never find an answer because one may not exist given our current knowledge of the condition.
- I’m sure you know this, but there is a very high chance Dr. Johnson will diagnose your horse as neuro (or at a higher grade than anyone else will) - to a hammer, the whole world is a nail, I guess. I’ve talked to a lot of vets that think these diagnoses (including hers, specifically) need to be taken with a large grain of salt, especially in the absence of other significant and relevant symptoms. She’s diagnosed my very successful FEI horse as grade 2, which makes literally everyone (including other vets) I tell this to pause confusingly. That being said, who am I to disagree with Dr. Johnson’s expertise? No one of significance, that’s for sure. But I do think it’s overdiagnosed, especially in warmbloods that are intentionally bred for a certain type of movement. (Whether such movement is caused by neurological deficits or just looks like movement that is associated with neurological horses is another thread…)
- Have you tried melatonin? Magnesium, for sure, but maybe throw a few melatonin pills into a snack at night check? I’ve done this to my horse in new environments, and although I can’t say it helped as I had no camera on her, I can confirm no ill effects! Melatonin is one of the safest things you can give a human for sleep, so I put this in the “can’t hurt, might help” category. Plus its cheap. I would do it every night for two weeks or so, and see if you can’t get a new habit going.
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100 gazillion percent. My horse was tentatively diagnosed as ‘neuro’ and he had a sore back.
Funnily enough, when I was at NBC recently (where we received the neuro Dx), and I ask about the little bit of residual back pain the horse has, they said that might be just pain from her neuro-ness. I was not satisfied with that answer at all, since this is a horse that presents, by just about every measure, as a high-functioning FEI horse. (spoiler alert: I think it’s probably more related to the NPA, sore stifles, etc., not her “neurological condition”)
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That is some crazy circular logic. They are neuro so they have a sore back so they look neuro but it’s really a sore back but could be caused by neuro except maybe not.
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Ugh, yeah, I went through that with my 5-year-old Hanoverian earlier this year. When Dr Johnson first saw him she said he is either really fancy or he’s neuro. She ended up grading him 2/5 after the full exam, negative myelogram, etc but we will never really know which he is unless he goes downhill and turns out to have EDM. He has very floaty movement and I can see why his hind legs especially would be considered neuro, but he has excellent balance, never trips, and is wonderful in every way so even if he is technically neuro it doesn’t seem to be doing him any harm (yet).
My TB who is the subject of this thread is inarguably NOT a fancy mover but Vet #1 deemed him neuro based on the way he turns in small circles so I’m guessing Dr Johnson will too. That determination has really screwed me as far as insurance. I think neck/back pain or maybe ulcers are more likely causes in his case than any actual neurological disorder…which is why I called Vet #1 hoping to have him scoped! This horse is jumping around Prelim very athletically and has always been VERY handy/catty/quick-footed so I have a really hard time thinking of him as neuro, like your FEI mare.
I’m overwhelmed by this and other things today. The TB got attacked by insects of some kind (?) at my friend’s farm so both his lower front legs are covered in tiny seeping sores and I think he needs to come home and not get turned out in that field again (this happened twice over three days). My 5-year-old was stocked up and seemed dull this morning, so I’m worried his heel bulb wound might be infected. My husband got a concussion last week and his cognitive function is not improving but he won’t stop trying to do things, even at the risk of falling over again. Our elderly dog is requiring more management and is also panting a lot, which is worrisome. I was super late for work because of all this and feel like I need to go home again in the middle of the day to check on everyone. I just can’t with life today.
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Jayzuz that’s a whole lot to deal with. I’m so sorry it’s all landing in exactly the same place at the same time.
What can we do to help? Can I send some cooked meals (professional not in a box from my kitchen)? Brownies? Wine? Tequila?
I am sending buckets of positive energy your way. And maybe this will help …
My husband, who is such an interesting character, believes fully that you never ask the universe for anything. You tell it exactly what you want. He has willed into being a remarkable array of happenings, and he believes it is because he is clear with the Universe. Along the lines of “you must …”. And, I’ve used it myself to a good end.
So maybe this is your day to get straight with Her/It and say clearly what you want. Not an ask … it’s a command.
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Just sending you some cosmic sized jingles, I’m sorry things have been so stressful. I hope your crew all is on the mend soon, that is so much to have on your plate. Big hugs.
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Man, that’s really interesting. Mine have always face planted! Is sitting like that common from what you’ve read from others with horses that do this? I wonder if it’s just a inconsequential thing, or if it points to something being uncomfortable or quirky up front.
That’s sure a lot on your plate. I’m so sorry things are tough right now. 
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I wondered the same thing but none of the vets who’ve seen his videos have had any opinions on what it might mean. I’ve seen some like him in the FB group and this mid-collapse horse from the UC Davis website looks similar so maybe it’s not super atypical?
He is home and the cameras show he is still sleep crashing, 2 weeks into EPM meds. 
Hi, I breezed through this thread and may not have seen whether PPID/cushing’s was discussed. Apologies if it has already been hashed out. Just want to chime in that mine presented with increased sleep deprivation activity, weird sore(s) (not related to collapsing) and cellulitis. No other signs suggested PPID.
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Interesting, thank you! We haven’t tested for that but maybe it’s worth a shot, especially since he’s 14 now.
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