Sleep Deprivation

[LadyB]

I have stumbled across the amazing podcast by Dr Audrey DeClue called The Horse First.

Came across her sleep deprivation episodes. There is a mare at my barn, my barn mate and I are super close. She is a younger mare, bringing her up to be an eventer. The mare has always had the scuffs on her fetlocks due to collapsing. Due to lack of REM sleep, unable to lay down, she will collapse when her stay apparatus does not lock. Owner has managed to protect her fetlocks by booting at all hours of the day, not ideal but safest for the mare.

Owner has had 2 vets out to look at her, mostly focused on her hind end or her feet. Had an absolutely wonderful lady out who does Craniosacral Therapy and noticed her sternum was not straight. After listening to this podcast, bells and whistles started to go off. Two vets and this wonderful woman has most likely found the reason to this mare not being able to lay down and get her REM sleep.

I am coming here as I am curious if anyone else has experience with Sleep Deprivation with their equines, and what were the actions they took to help them?
Dr Audrey DeClue discusses sleep deprivation at length, but understandably does not discuss what she does to help the horses she’s worked with.

This mare rolls outside, albeit with a struggle to get down. I have not seen her lay down in the 4 years I’ve been around her, but I have witnessed her sleep crashing when she’s tired and buckles. This is not narcolepsy, as narcolepsy is actually extremely rare. Rather disappointed that with two vets, neither even were close to being able to diagnose this issue.

Thoughts on Chiropractors, acupunctures, Craniosacral therapy to help this mare. I do think the Craniosacral Therapy has already helped a little with her body adjustments, but always open to other ideas.

Any others have experience with Sleep Deprivation, excited to discuss other cases with similar issues.

[S1969]

@LadyB

This mare rolls outside, albeit with a struggle to get down. I have not seen her lay down in the 4 years I’ve been around her, but I have witnessed her sleep crashing when she’s tired and buckles.

Is she lame/unsound under saddle? I find it hard to believe she is sound under saddle if she struggles to get down to roll? I would think that should show something in a lameness eval or would show up as unsoundness in some other way.

What is the turnout/stall situation?

Unless you have a known physical situation, I’d look more to environmental factors for sleep deprivation issues. I have a mare who is very similar; rarely lies down in turnout, often falling asleep and stumbling during the day. (She is retired).

This was not an issue until I lost the old gelding who was the “herd boss”. Previously she would lie down often and sleep; but now she is the one standing and watching while the others sleep. It is clear that she is not as relaxed in the herd as she used to be.

If she were in work I would definitely change her herd situation and/or stall her for a longer period so she could sleep. At present, I know she does lie down and sleep because I can see mud/manure, etc. on her flanks. But if she was working I’d want to be sure she was getting more restorative sleep before asking her to work.

[LadyB]

She is sound under saddle.

turn out is 8-5 and longer in the summer, out until 6 or 7. Mare is out with my gelding, she is the alpha mare, he just runs from her. He doesn’t push her buttons. He will lay down outside and sleep, she will stand beside him.

I personally think she has good turn out and her stall is 12x12 where she is able to lay down, the space is big enough for her.

[S1969]

Interesting. I would think about trying two things - put a camera in her stall to see how often she lies down in her stall and/or sleeps.

If she doesn’t seem to lie down in her stall, I might consider a trial of bute or previcox to see if she is more comfortable. It doesn’t pinpoint an actual issue per se, but if you see a change it would indicate a physical, rather than environmental issue.

[AnastasiaBeaverhousen]

Can your barn mate put a camera in her stall?

Horses are nocturnal but they do adapt to human hours.

Does the barn leave a radio playing all night?

Is the mare next to a horse that she doesn’t get along with?

Is it possible that wildlife can get into the barn and prowl around ?

It may be this mare doesnt want to lay down because she’s afraid she cant get up again.

[Scribbler]

I’ve known of one older horse who had crashing due to sleep deprivation. He only slept outside. The owner changed his runout paddock from hog fuel (cedar mulch) to sand. He didn’t want to sleep in sand. He started getting narcoleptic until they switched his paddock back to hogfuel and he could sleep. He was not my horse or under my care so I didn’t have a front row seat on this but he was in my barn.

My own mare needs a good couple hours every day. She took a while to learn to sleep inside. She finally started during a 3 day rainstorm when I’d given her lots of bedding. Before that, I’d take her into the indoor arena to longe during rainstorms and she’d like down and start to doze.

[LadyB]

thanks @S1969 Previcox was tried last year, it did not seem to make a difference to her being able to lay down, didn’t actually notice much change in her in general with previcox. I will mention the camera to my barn mate and see if this is something she can do.

[LadyB]

Can your barn mate put a camera in her stall?

Horses are nocturnal but they do adapt to human hours.

Does the barn leave a radio playing all night? we will see if this is an option

Is the mare next to a horse that she doesn’t get along with? she is on a short wall, only two stalls, and her paddock buddy (my gelding who she is madly in love with) is beside her

Is it possible that wildlife can get into the barn and prowl around ? **Summer time, doors are wide open, so potentially, winter the barn is closed up, so no wildlife inside in the winter. **

It may be this mare doesnt want to lay down because she’s afraid she cant get up again.

[quietann]

just my experience: the sleep deprivation with my mare was certainly environmental. She’d fall asleep on the cross-ties and her knees would start to buckle but she’d always wake up – and this is normally a hyper-alert horse. She was out 18-24 hours per day in an individual paddock with an over the fence buddy. She had a lovely shed, well-bedded with shavings, but really only used it to pee in unless the weather was really bad. Things were good the first winter, but that was “Snowmageddon” (2014-15) and there were no critters or other things out in all that snow that would bother her. The second winter, she started getting very wound-up, so for the winter she had a stall and was turned out during the day.

She went back out in April or May of 2016, and started having these sleep problems. The third winter was the one where she did. not. sleep. They started bringing her in in the morning and letting her hang out in another horse’s stall, and she’d nibble hay and then crash for an hour or more. It was pretty clear that she was not really sleeping outside. There were increasing numbers of coyotes and a bear around at night, and her paddock was situated such that she was the “first line of defense.” This horse takes her job of protecting others very seriously.

I moved her in April 2017 to a barn where she is out during the day for ~7-8 hours, and she was like a different horse… just because she was getting enough sleep.

If she’s ever out 24/7 again, it’s going to be in a herd.

So consider environmental things, too.

[theresak]

My horse has sleep deprivation caused by a combination of environmental and physical issues.

I’ve tried moving his stall, changing the bedding method, changing how he’s fed hay, treated physical issues (injections, equioxx, etc.), and tried 24/7 turnout. The one thing that triggered all of it was changes in the herd while he was on stall rest, and since he returned to full turnout (it’s been years), we haven’t had a good herd leader.

I use these boots and leave them on 24/7 to protect his fetlocks.

[No1]

As others have suggested, put a camera in the stall overnight. Preferably for several days.

I knew of one horse who was having what was eventually diagnosed as ‘night terrors.’ And others who were actually having neurological episodes at night.

[leesa1]

@LadyB

Had an absolutely wonderful lady out who does Craniosacral Therapy and noticed her sternum was not straight

There’s a recent webinar from Sharon may davis about the c6/c7 malformation and how it can include other issues, one being incorrect development of the first and second rib which can cause curvature of the sternum.

Might be worth a look? There are some pics in this youtube video, if you press play the video will start off right at the part about the sternum but heads up that it’s from a dissection so the pictures include a ribcage from a deceased horse.

No. 133. Sharon May Davis discusses Equine Complex Vertebral Malformation (ECVM)

[LadyB]

WOW! Thank you @leesa1, mind blowing. We have found another chiropractor to look have out as well, as I personally felt the last one was doing the same routine on every horse, not necessarily working on the horse in front of them.

Thanks to the camera suggestions, Owner is going to put one up in the stall and see how the mare is over night.

[Ghazzu]

@AnastasiaBeaverhousen

Horses are nocturnal

I don’t think so.

Are there lights on in the barn at night? That can have a depressive effect on melatonin and cause problems with normal rhythms.

[Jealoushe]

Studies released last year show horses prefer NO radio on at night. Just a heads up.

For my guy, I tried a few things. Changing stalls, and making sure he was very deeply bedded. A lot of the time the lack of sleep is due to insecurity over the herd dynamics. Indy was obsessed with Penny so he could never have a good rest when he was beside her. When he was across from her however he did a lot better.

I found the mastersons method helped him a lot also. I do think his underlying condition was also a hinder in his recovery when he suffered the never damage in his back. I feel like there might have already been something there that just was waiting until the day he fell.

Wish I had heard of Dr DeClue when I had him.

[LadyB]

There is no radio on at night, barn is dark as night when no one is there, which by 9pm, no one is there.

She may not feel safe with her herd mate, which is surprising as she gets to do whatever she wants, but he’s terrified of her haha! He knows when she gives him the ‘look’ to run!

Owner was looking into the Mastersons Method as well, has been trying some of the techniques over the weekend.

[Scribbler]

At our barn horses sleep in shifts. Some are flat out at 11 pm. My mare is wide awake on guard and ready to play at 11 pm. She sleeps flat out between 5 am breakfast and 10 am brunch hay drops. Some others are out flat snoring in the afternoon.