Small animal vet rant

[ESG]

@Wayside;4199057

Part of that is for liability reasons. If someone gets bitten by your cat (either visitors to your home or someone at the vet’s office), and your cat’s rabies vaccination is not up-to-date, your cat could be forced to undergo quarantine. At your expense. The rabies vaccine is much cheaper. Plus your vet really does not want to be bitten by an unvaccinated cat with only your word that the cat has not been exposed.

There is also the slim possibility that vermin could make its way into your house and bite your cat. Not real likely, but the consequences of having a cat bit by say, a rabid bat, would be quite tragic if your beloved pet was unvaccinated.

Bollocks.

The simple truth is that many SA vets are just in it to make money. I have survived encounters with three clinics like those described here, and won’t bore you with the details, but in each case, treatments for small problems (a dime-sized skin tumor removed from a cat - one clinic quoted $1000, the one who did the procedure, $290), were quoted at ridiculous rates. I don’t give a rat’s patoot how aesthetically pleasing a vet clinic is, any more than I do if a human doctor’s office is full of fountains and designer furniture. I want good care at a reasonable price. Just because you spend $1million on building your clinic, doesn’t mean I have to pay for your extravagant taste. And my dog doesn’t care that your Saltillo tile floors and Spanish tile roofed, stucco clinic is the prettiest thing this side of the Rio Grande - he only knows that he gets poked and prodded in the same places, and Mommy growls at the stupid techs who ask the same questions and push the same unnecessary products, over and over. As others have said, no means no, goddamit! STFU and treat my dog, and let me pay you and get out of here- I don’t need a lecture on extraneous, unnecessary costs or a guilt trip from you! :mad: I used to work in a SA clinic, and know all too well the bill-padding that goes on. When I see it on my bills, I automatically start crossing things off the list, and start making arrangements to take the “kids” to a new vet.

I don’t want recent DVMs charging me nearly $400, and suggesting $1000 exploratory surgery for a glove my dog supposedly swallowed (which turned out to be the tech’s hand that got in the way in the x-ray), and then give me a hard time about “being too cheap to care for your dog properly”. Happily, I was borne out by the glove suddenly “deflating” and disappearing (:rolleyes: ) on subsequent x-rays, but the silly little twit only said, “Oh, well, you got lucky”, and never admitted that she was the one that screwed up in the first place. Never refunded any of my money, either, even after I went to the owner of the practice, who was a total ass, too. I guess that’s what you get when your vet gets her chops from Moo U. :rolleyes: And before anyone gets cranky, it’s not A & M.

[dr_j]

[QUOTE=JSwan;4208059]
Well - I guess that shoots down the assertion that veterinarians are primarily concerned about practicing medicine. :rolleyes:

No matter how much the standard of care has risen it still does not justify the egregious costs associated with routine veterinary care - which often exceeds the costs for HUMANs to obtain similar care.

Many vets take great exception to people treating their pets at home, or with products designed for other species, or purchasing vaccines and products off the internet. Ostensibly this is due to their concerns over quality vet care for the animal in question - and now you are asserting it’s really all about money.

Which is what we all thought in the first place. Money is the primary motivation.

Thanks for confirming what we suspected.

No reasonable person wants to compromise on veterinary care for their pet or livestock.

The reason we have to is because of the outrageous prices for ROUTINE CARE and increasingly exclusive and upscale nature of small animal practices. If y’all keep going on the path you are on - that 55% is going to start dropping. Actually - it already has. If those percentages are correct 45% of animal owners cannot afford the prices you are charging for routine care.

Perhaps instead of trying to foist expensive prescription diets, pills, potions and treatments trying to pay for the granite countertops - you should focus on reaching the 45% of clients that you’re pricing out of your practice.[/QUOTE]

Sigh.

Where do I start?

Why is it that with every other profession it’s “OK” to actually want to provide a good living for your family but for vets that has to be secondary to everything else?

And have you every thought of it this way- those 45% of clients that are being priced out, were priced out the minute they got the animal. They aren’t paying their own bills let alone their veterinary bills. i.e. They shouldn’t have the animal to begin with. It’s not a right you know. Catering to those clients helps no one, because pretty soon you no longer have a practice.

I planned a much longer response but alas, I have to on a call. On a Holiday - while my family is off to the lake.

[dr_j]

PS

Oh and the countertops are actually quartz… after living in a very dumpy farm house for 15 years so I could pay my loans ( and while most of my peers said things like HOW do you live in that house?)

[ESG]

Ummm, I’d be careful about how you refer to “the other 45%”. Because I’m in that number.

I don’t want to be charged ridiculous amounts of money for basic care. I don’t mind paying good money for good care. I have been a cat/dog owner for 30 years, a horse owner for 26, and worked in a vet clinic (SA) for two. I’ve seen damned near everything one can see, between the horses, cats, dogs, reptiles, and some exotics, and I know what’s “reasonable” and “customary”. Ripping off over half of your clientele is neither reasonable, nor customary. And just because I don’t want to be ripped off, and belong in your infamous “other 45%”, doesn’t mean that I don’t have the desire or the financial wherewithal to care EXTREMELY well for my animals. The fact that my four footed “kids” live healthy lives to rather extraordinary ages (the nineteen year old cat, the sixteen year old GSD cross dog, the twenty-nine year old TB) is testament to that, or so my equine vet told me. I don’t appreciate the implication that those of us who aren’t stupid enough to put up with being grossly overcharged, don’t have either the necessary finances for good care, or our animals’ best interest at heart.

And I’m very glad that I’m in an area of the country that I’ll probably never encounter you as a vet. :dead:

[JSwan]

If you did read through the entire thread then you would know that I am a greedy capitalist just like anyone else. Fully supportive of good businesses and don’t mind markups at all.

But you will not get any sympathy from me about the fact that you are on call. You chose your profession knowing the pros and cons and late nights and holiday/weekend work are normal in your profession.

The assertion that 45% of people should not own animals and aren’t paying their bills is so absolutely ridiculous it’s not even worth responding to.

What is ridiculous are some of the prices vets are charging for routine veterinary care.

The cost of keeping a 50lb dog should not cost as much per month as a car payment.

All small animal practices are becoming outrageous. And I’m sorry not all of it is because of your school debt or overhead.

And please - don’t start with the pity party. Things are tough all over and the image of the downtrodden vet doesn’t mesh with the gorgeous granite countertops I see and gigantic bills I receive for a rabies and distemper shot.

There is profit and then there is price gouging. There is a difference. Profit is fine - lots of profit is even better. Price gouging is not.

If you don’t know the difference then you are not a vet I want to do business with.

I hope your 55% clientele doesn’t suddenly discover you’re ripping them off.

If vets want to start attracting the same attention that human health care is getting you are probably not going to like the result. Perhaps it’s time costs of vet care in the US start being addressed by the legislature - particularly as lack of vet care poses such a risk to human health as well as our food supply.

If so - I will be on the side lobbying for price controls and guaranteed access to basic vet care like vaccinations. As it is now you can charge anything you want, insist that every treatment you want to administer is absolutely necessary - and if we don’t pay or dare to question you can accuse us of neglect or not loving our animals enough.

Hmmm - yes - maybe it’s time to examine vet care and see what y’all are really up to.

[luvmywalkers]

[QUOTE=dr j;4208088]
Sigh.

Where do I start?

Why is it that with every other profession it’s “OK” to actually want to provide a good living for your family but for vets that has to be secondary to everything else?

And have you every thought of it this way- those 45% of clients that are being priced out, were priced out the minute they got the animal. They aren’t paying their own bills let alone their veterinary bills. i.e. They shouldn’t have the animal to begin with. It’s not a right you know. Catering to those clients helps no one, because pretty soon you no longer have a practice.

I planned a much longer response but alas, I have to on a call. On a Holiday - while my family is off to the lake.[/QUOTE]

Lowering your prices somewhat so that more animals can be helped - and paid for - reduces your standard of living?

Do you run a credit check on new clients? How exactly do you know what bills your clients pay or don’t pay?

You are absolutely correct in stating that it’s not a right to own animals; it’s a luxury and as such it should only be reserved for well-educated, financially stable/secure people. Of course, this would greatly reduce your income…

And what a coincidence: my DH is also away on a call, and he’s not even a vet! Yup, it’s a bummer, especially on a holiday but what the heck - it allows me to afford a vet when I need one.

[dr_j]

[QUOTE=ESG;4208103]
Ummm, I’d be careful about how you refer to “the other 45%”. Because I’m in that number.

I don’t want to be charged ridiculous amounts of money for basic care. I don’t mind paying good money for good care. I have been a cat/dog owner for 30 years, a horse owner for 26, and worked in a vet clinic (SA) for two. I’ve seen damned near everything one can see, between the horses, cats, dogs, reptiles, and some exotics, and I know what’s “reasonable” and “customary”. Ripping off over half of your clientele is neither reasonable, nor customary. And just because I don’t want to be ripped off, and belong in your infamous “other 45%”, doesn’t mean that I don’t have the desire or the financial wherewithal to care EXTREMELY well for my animals. The fact that my four footed “kids” live healthy lives to rather extraordinary ages (the nineteen year old cat, the sixteen year old GSD cross dog, the twenty-nine year old TB) is testament to that, or so my equine vet told me. I don’t appreciate the implication that those of us who aren’t stupid enough to put up with being grossly overcharged, don’t have either the necessary finances for good care, or our animals’ best interest at heart.

And I’m very glad that I’m in an area of the country that I’ll probably never encounter you as a vet. :dead:[/QUOTE]

Unless we start talking things like average transaction fees and other hard numbers it’s difficult to say/ decide who is price gouging and who’s not. And I hate to tell you but you are probably not in the 45% no matter what you say. The fact that you do any preventive care whatsoever “says” so.

The 45% are usually those who actually do want to do “everything” possible for their pet - but cannot pay for it AND have decided that it is someone else’s fault - usually the veterinary practice. As most vets will tell you the client they fear the most are the ones who come in saying "I don’t care what it costs’ ( code for because I can’t pay for it anyway). The folks that deeply care weigh their ( usually multiple) options and make their decisions based on their ability to pay and the possible outcomes are always a pleasure to work with. I have no problem with those who choose to not cut a colic or a GDV for financial or other reasons. I have no problem with those who choose to euthanize their old kitty in renal failure rather than throwing a bunch of money at a poor prognosis. What I do have a problem with is making it MY fault that these often intensive procedures cost money. I have had clients spend ridiculous amts of money on cases which were hopeless, I have euthanized cases that were not hopeless but the clients were not up to treatment emotionally or financially. That’s part of it. The point is it’s NOT my choice, it’s theirs and the options have to be offered or it’s NOT good medicine. And it’s actually discrimination. I offer the same options to everyone. In fact I don’t even review my estimates by cost - I do it by procedure/treatment. The staff handles the costs. That enables me to offer my best recommendations without a profit/cost motive.

Vets could stop offering advanced diagnostics/treatments to their clients and then when a client ( could even be you) truly has a need for it, it won’t be available and your vet won’t be experienced enough to utilize the technology.

I would also say that you are right- you won’t encounter me because dollars to doughnuts I live in a tougher area of the country economically than you do- and probably more rural. That’s why management is so darn important. While the rest of the country rode a wave of prosperity for the last 30 years, we have not. To keep the doors open for any of our clients these are lessons we have had to learn.

[dr_j]

[QUOTE=luvmywalkers;4208159]
Lowering your prices somewhat so that more animals can be helped - and paid for - reduces your standard of living?

Do you run a credit check on new clients? How exactly do you know what bills your clients pay or don’t pay?

You are absolutely correct in stating that it’s not a right to own animals; it’s a luxury and as such it should only be reserved for well-educated, financially stable/secure people. Of course, this would greatly reduce your income…

And what a coincidence: my DH is also away on a call, and he’s not even a vet! Yup, it’s a bummer, especially on a holiday but what the heck - it allows me to afford a vet when I need one.[/QUOTE]

There are places that offer lowered prices so more animals can be cared for- they are humane society and shelter related and are non-profits. A private practice must make a profit or it cannot function.

Lowering my standard of living? Honestly do you know any vets that are living way above the other professionals in their area? Do you expect to NOT make a decent living from your profession?

I wish your DH a peaceful day!

[dr_j]

[QUOTE=JSwan;4208108]

If so - guaranteed access to basic vet care like vaccinations. [/QUOTE]

You already have that. You are not paying your vet for the vaccine. You can get every vaccine you ever wanted from a catalog or the local feed store. You are paying for a professional to administer it, a physical and usually the undivided attention of that professional for 15-20 minutes.

And being a greedy capitalist ( like me;)) ensures you realize that getting any government entity involved will make it lots better, uhhhumm, lot’s better! LOL

[luvmywalkers]

[QUOTE=dr j;4208239]
There are places that offer lowered prices so more animals can be cared for- they are humane society and shelter related and are non-profits. A private practice must make a profit or it cannot function.

Lowering my standard of living? Honestly do you know any vets that are living way above the other professionals in their area? Do you expect to NOT make a decent living from your profession?

I wish your DH a peaceful day![/QUOTE]

You are reading my post incorrectly, so let me re-phrase: Lowering your prices a little, so a few more animals who have the misfortune of being owned by those who barely make middle class, can be helped by you, would that put you in the poorhouse? Does it really decrease your profit if you had more volume at lower cost?

[BuddyRoo]

[QUOTE=luvmywalkers;4208352]
You are reading my post incorrectly, so let me re-phrase: Lowering your prices a little, so a few more animals who have the misfortune of being owned by those who barely make middle class, can be helped by you, would that put you in the poorhouse? Does it really decrease your profit if you had more volume at lower cost?[/QUOTE]

Yes. It does.

Look. There were MANY clients at my clinic who, in the face of a pretty MINOR situation (<500$) would “elect” to euth. And in those cases, we would offer to take the pet, treat, and rehome.

Nowadays, veterinarians do not make money off of routine stuff if the practice is being managed well. You basically charge slightly over cost for vaccs but you DO charge for professional services–like an exam. A lot of people don’t even want to pay for that. And THAT is where the education and profession comes in.

Anyone can give an IM or sub q vaccine. A monkey can do it. Most clinics no longer charge much for the vaccine itselt–but for the service of an exam.

If people want to cut costs…take the risk of screwing it up yourself and just give the vaccs.

I choose to pay for the exam and vaccs and routine care w/ my vet so that I have an established relationship for the times when I NEED a pro. I was a “tech” for 10 years. I can give vaccs. Hell, I can do a spay, neuter, and a number of other basic surgeries if I had some iso or propofol on hand. That’s not the point. The point is that you’re paying for the expertise.

[JSwan]

[QUOTE=dr j;4208249]
You already have that. You are not paying your vet for the vaccine. You can get every vaccine you ever wanted from a catalog or the local feed store. You are paying for a professional to administer it, a physical and usually the undivided attention of that professional for 15-20 minutes.

And being a greedy capitalist ( like me;)) ensures you realize that getting any government entity involved will make it lots better, uhhhumm, lot’s better! LOL[/QUOTE]

You’re not reading my or anyone else’s posts either. No, we’re not paying for that. We’re not paying for professional attention at all. We’re simply paying sometimes hundreds of percentage points in marke up for nothing. Not even an exam. Just constantly pushing clients into exorbitant and unnecessary treatments - even emotional manipulation when the client opts for more conservative treatment or euthanasia. (let’s say for cancer)

It seems that SA vets want it both ways. You want extraordinary latitude and no oversight on prices or practices, yet want to turn even the smallest practice into a miniature Mayo clinic/upscale resort. That’s not veterinary medicine. It’s resort management.

Even the most urban oriented client is eventually going to balk at these prices. Yet - when any attempt is made to make products or services more available to the public at a lower cost - through the form of direct competition, alternative medicine, certified layperson’s offering a greater range of services - the veterinary lobby attempts to quash them.

Other vets have argued that their practices suffer because clients purchase products off the Internet. Well - like ANY other business they have a choice. Match the price or don’t offer that product because it’s not profitable.

Vets want it both ways. They want to ban the internet sales of products - and still offer that product at their clinic - at any price they see fit to charge - because now a client has little to no choice.

That’s an attempt to corner the market.

Again - SA vet practices are supposed to be there to provide veterinary care. Instead - more and more of them are becoming VERY upscale practices in which the focus is less on overall health, and more on pushing products - MANY of which are NOT even remotely necessary for an animal’s health.

If you’re practicing medicine - then practice medicine. If you want to provide a spa like experience - open a spa.

When I go to my dr for my annual and breast exam - he doesn’t offer a pedicure and boob job, then back me into a corner if I decline because if I was a really good wife and loved my husband - I’d make sure my boobs looked perky.

[CatOnLap]

@some vet

Lowering my standard of living? Honestly do you know any vets that are living way above the other professionals in their area? Do you expect to NOT make a decent living from your profession?

As a physician, whose prices are strictly controlled by the government, I struggle to maintain my small acreage, outdoor ring and to care for all my animals. I am living paycheck to paycheck, and take home about the same as the local police sargeants and high school principals, without any of the benefits or pensions those professions have.

My horse vet, bless his heart, is a wonderful guy…who has a huge new indoor arena, and accompanying barn, twice the acreage, and twice as many vehicles and such. My small animal vet has lovely remodeled surgery, again twice the acreage, a wonderful remodled luxury home…

Fortunately, both these people respect my choices to be a minimalist when it comes to care. I don’t feel they are overcharging me either, usually, although $500 for a morning of diagnostics for a dog who recovered a few hours later without any treatment or diagnosis, does seem excessive. Especially the $50 “1/2 day stay” fee. On the financial scale they are doing much better than most of the human doctors I know, “way above” as you say.

[dr_j]

@JSwan;4208400

You’re not reading my or anyone else’s posts either. No, we’re not paying for that. We’re not paying for professional attention at all.

You are right- I have not had the time to read the whole thread and catalog who goes to a vet that actually does an exam with their vax and who does not. In my part of the world, exams go with every vaccination visit.

And since I already practice in an “arena” that does almost zero retailing I can’t relate to the rest of your post. What we “sell” is high quality medicine - period.

[dr_j]

[QUOTE=CatOnLap;4208419]
As a physician, whose prices are strictly controlled by the government, [/QUOTE]

Obviously you are not in the US. And obviously you could be a walking ad for keeping the govt out of our healthcare. But that’s a whole "nother post. :winkgrin:

[dr_j]

@JSwan;4208400

You’re not reading my or anyone else’s posts either. No, we’re not paying for that. We’re not paying for professional attention at all. We’re simply paying sometimes hundreds of percentage points in marke up for nothing. Not even an exam. Just constantly pushing clients into exorbitant and unnecessary treatments - even emotional manipulation when the client opts for more conservative treatment or euthanasia. (let’s say for cancer)

You are obviously not reading my posts either.

From my previous post:

"The 45% are usually those who actually do want to do “everything” possible for their pet - but cannot pay for it AND have decided that it is someone else’s fault - usually the veterinary practice. As most vets will tell you the client they fear the most are the ones who come in saying "I don’t care what it costs’ ( code for because I can’t pay for it anyway). The folks that deeply care weigh their ( usually multiple) options and make their decisions based on their ability to pay and the possible outcomes are always a pleasure to work with. I have no problem with those who choose to not cut a colic or a GDV for financial or other reasons. I have no problem with those who choose to euthanize their old kitty in renal failure rather than throwing a bunch of money at a poor prognosis. What I do have a problem with is making it MY fault that these often intensive procedures cost money. I have had clients spend ridiculous amts of money on cases which were hopeless, I have euthanized cases that were not hopeless but the clients were not up to treatment emotionally or financially. That’s part of it. The point is it’s NOT my choice, it’s theirs and the options have to be offered or it’s NOT good medicine. And it’s actually discrimination. I offer the same options to everyone. In fact I don’t even review my estimates by cost - I do it by procedure/treatment. The staff handles the costs. That enables me to offer my best recommendations without a profit/cost motive.
"

[Ambrey]

@dr j;4208088

And have you every thought of it this way- those 45% of clients that are being priced out, were priced out the minute they got the animal. They aren’t paying their own bills let alone their veterinary bills. i.e. They shouldn’t have the animal to begin with. It’s not a right you know. Catering to those clients helps no one, because pretty soon you no longer have a practice.

I live in an area with a lot of $$. If your animal is sick, and you take it to the “high end” vet clinic, you won’t get out of there for less than $500. You’re trying to tell me that a person who can’t afford $500 for an animal with a cold shouldn’t own the animal?

I stopped visiting my high end vet after every visit had $300 of “recommended treatment,” and I was made to feel guilty for not wanting to do intensive treatment on a 13 year old 3 legged cat with invasive stomach cancer (not about what he was worth, but the quality of life he had to look forward to and his chances of recovery!). Now I go to a vet whose office is straight out of the 50s. He does all of the basics and doesn’t push frills, and is very reasonable. He is keeping our geriatric dog comfortable and happy, and not recommending painful procedures that would have limited benefit over the long term but cause a lot of fear and distress now :no:

[BuddyRoo]

Last year about this time…my dog started having seizures. As it was after hours, I first went to an emergency clinic. The vet was an ass. Seriously. My vet no longer recommends the place for afterhours. He wouldn’t look at my notes, wouldn’t look at my video and wouldn’t start the blood work.

I ended up at a neurologist w/ my dog. (cluster seizures).

At that point we had options. The best option was a CSF AND an MRI. Problem was, each was 2500. I didn’t have 5k. I had 3k. So I opted for the CSF because I knew that if it was X I could treat. But if it was a brain tumor, I couldn’t.

That dr. told me point blank that he would PREFER to have all the diagnostic tools…which I totally understood. But I explained that I had X in $$$ and I had to choose…told him my logic and he did the CSF not the MRI.

I think that anyone who believes that all vets are freaking James Herriot need their heads examined. It’s still a BUSINESS. It’s not volunteer work. And you can educate yourself in a way to make choices. But shouldn’t they GIVE us the options? How is giving someone options BAD?

No one can make you feel inferior without your permission. Do what you think is right with the information you have…some vets do suck. Not going to argue. But most would just like to have all the info possible to practice good medicine. How can you fault them for that?

[JSwan]

[QUOTE=dr j;4208421]

What we “sell” is high quality medicine - period.[/QUOTE]

That’s all I’m interested in. I can clip their nails and bathe them at home. If they get really sick or injured I want to be given the choice to end their life without having to be pressured into weeks or months of chemo, or painful surgeries - or have someone demand I hand over ownership so he can be ‘saved’.

My animals - my choices. My responsibility.

[dr_j]

@Ambrey;4208453

I live in an area with a lot of $$. If your animal is sick, and you take it to the “high end” vet clinic, you won’t get out of there for less than $500. You’re trying to tell me that a person who can’t afford $500 for an animal with a cold shouldn’t own the animal?

That is your interperatation. My guess is their average transaction, even in your area of the country is under $200.

Once again owning and animal is not a necessity or right. If you desire care you will have to pay the going rate - whatever that may be, whereever you may find it. I would guess your 50s practitioner is a great person and probably a darn good vet but I would also guess if you required the cutting edge of vet medicine you wouldn’t get it there. Your choice but don’t make it for others.