Small animal vet rant

[Parker_Rider]

[QUOTE=bluehof;4205898]
Flame suit on and this is going to be a LONG response. I have not read all pages of this thread so am sure I am not addressing all points made. I am a small animal vet, having worked for two corporate chains and now own my own hospital. I completely understand where people come from regarding budgets and pushy vets. I feel that way when I go to Jiffy Lube. However, there is another side to this conversation.

I did not become a vet to give rabies shots. I went to school to practice veterinary medicine. That includes providing complete preventative medicine and dispensing veterinary medical advice. And yes that means offering clients bloodwork, testing, surgeries, etc. It means giving clients options of care from all the bells and whistles to the most conservative option available. We also no longer live in a society of personal responsibility and hence I am forced to practice “defensive medicine” due to lawsuit liability. We have to always offer and recommend the “highest level of medical care” available. We have to make notation of all declined recommendations. I have a complaint pending right now against me to the State Board from a client that came in with his dog for his “yearly” last October. He declined all services other than a rabies vaccine and exam (only because the exam was required or he would have declined that too). It was noted during the exam that his dog’s gums looked pale and bloodwork recommended, he declined. Two months later his dog died of a hemagiosarcoma and he filed a suit that it should have been diagnosed in October. This suit is still pending and it has taken me a lot of time, money and anguish dealing with this frivolous complaint.

I have a veterinary friend that routinely signed on-line fax script requests. One of her clients bought their HW meds that way and the dog contracted HWD. The client filed suit against my friend as she signed the fax and should have known the product may have been tainted. The client was also pissed off b/c the drug manufacturer would not pay for the HW treatment as the product was purchased on-line. If the HWP had been purchased through their vet (ie; my friend) the manufacturer would have stood behind their product b/c quality control could be accounted for. Hence, this is why I will write a script for a client and they can then submit to where ever they want but I WILL NOT sign a fax request. It is also the reason I recommend not buying HWP on-line. If you think never missing a dose of HWP your dog cannot get HWD you are wrong. NO DRUG IS 100% EFFECTIVE AT ANYTHING. I am treating a collie right now that has never missed a dose of HWP. Thankfully b/c the owner has always bought her meds through us and we have all the records the treatment is being covered by the drug manufacturer (about $600). That is also why I REQUIRE yearly HWT, no waiver out option. The test costs the client $16.50. In my mind too little for me to risk the possible lawsuit b/c in a suit that waiver means diddly squat.

A routine dog yearly at my clinic costs exam $40, 3-yr DHPP $25, HWT $16.50 or 3DX (HWT with tick titer) $44, rabies $16.50, Bord $16.50 (only on boarding or grooming dogs), fecal $22. Bloodwork is recommended on dogs 5-7 years or older at a cost of $68-110 (at least 50% decline and we just note it in the chart). These prices are more than reasonable in my mind but I hear hourly the complaints about cost and “how for those prices I could build a wing on to your hospital”.

I offer vaccine clinics 4 times a year and low cost spay/ neuter prices one week each month. I hear daily how “such and such a date for the vaccine clinic doesn’t work for my schedule. Why can’t you just give me those prices on such and such a date that works for me?”. Or “why isn’t bloodwork included in that $70 spay?”. It doesn’t work that way, low cost clinics are held at SPECIFIC times and dates. But people are selfish, unappreciative and have no respect for me, my staff, or our policies.

Here is my week thus far (true story):
Monday: a man comes in and says his dog hurt his leg and is in his car. Can I come out to just look at it and see if it needs an exam. Well, I explain to him that that is an exam and it cost $40. He walked out pissed only to come back 1 hr later. He then gripes about needing an x-ray as it is so clearly broken and don’t I know that. You can see where this is going.

Tues: a woman comes in with a dog with a huge laceration needing sutures. We give her an estimate of $300. She gripes saying anesthesia is unnecessary and just give it some lidocaine. There is no way I will do that and she leaves saying she won’t even pay for the exam since I didn’t do anything. She finally reluctantly pays the $40 and leaves only to return 2 hrs later after she went to 2 other vets and I can only assume we were the cheapest. We make her pay upfront due to her previous reluctance and she gripes some more. The dog goes home with 45 sutures, a bandage, an ecollar, and strict instructions. Fast forward to today (Thurs) and woman comes in screaming with dog, laceration re-opened, no bandage and ecollar MIA. She explains she couldn’t contain dog, he wouldn’t wear the ecollar, took off his bandage but it is my fault as the sutures weren’t tight enough and the bandage “sucked”. Needless to say she was royally upset about having to pay again for a second repair.

Wed: woman comes in with dying parvo puppy and no $$. I am cruel b/c I won’t treat the puppy for free, how dare I let it die, she has no job, her boyfriend has no job, she is pregnant, etc, etc. Puppy ends up dying and joy, joy another one of her dogs is due to whelp next week.

Thurs: had to deal with above Tues woman again.

Now don’t get me wrong. I have many, thankfully most, clients that I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE. And they are not the ones with all the money. They are the ones that respect me, my staff, my time, my policies. And in return I respect them, their decisions, their limitations. They are not the ones that complain when they come to a vaccine clinic and have to wait on line, they are not the ones that expect me to pay for their animals care. They are the ones that do what they can, are happy to hear my knowledge, understand that I can’t always get to the phone RIGHT THEN but will always call back asap, are happy to pay my prices even if the guy down the street is a few bucks cheaper b/c they respect me. These are the clients I foster and spend my time with. These are the clients I will give a quick look down an ear to see if they are cleaning it well for no charge, the ones I work with on cost and go over ways to save money, the ones I will give the depo shot to their cat and not charge an exam fee, the one I trim toes nails at no charge, etc. If one is going from vet to vet, always griping and complaining maybe, just maybe, it is the vets response to how they are being treated by the client.[/QUOTE]

that is one helluva week, Bluehof!!!
and I would fully agree that there are some people who just shouldn’t own pets due to a disease I call lack of functioning cognition I think most people who are conscientious and most vets who are well trained and thinking about the care of the animal aren’t who we’re discussing on this thread. I know a lot of techs who are great, too. It is definitely a two way street!!!

[foggybok]

[QUOTE=dalpal;4205854]
Yep…that’s right. And a matter of fact, my beef isn’t even with the VET…it’s with the owners/business folks. I doubt seriously that the vets are getting anything out of these ridiculous price hikes.

And would someone please tell me why I not only have to pay for an xray to be taken, but now I have to pay for it to be read??? Okay, if they get it wrong, am I going to get my money back? We’re not talking about a specialist coming in to look at an xray they didn’t take…this just really irritates the snot out of me. The office manager told me proudly that the 175.00 charge for 2 xrays included the reading fee and to be careful because most of those lower quotes probably didn’t include that service" All I could think was “YOU’VE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME” I remember when the practice started tacking on a 30.00 reading fee to their 50 dollar xrays…I thought WTF???[/QUOTE]

THat’s a little funny…off course someone is going to read it, why would they take it in the first place if nobody was going to read it… I’ve seen extra fees for having a board certified radiologist read it. Someone must be taking lessons from human med, where the costs are often split out that way…

I suspect the receptionist was wrong about the digital not being part of it. Digital is more expensive and people will charge for it…

And you are probably right, it is the practice managers setting prices… In many places the vets have NO say at all in what they charge…

[foggybok]

[QUOTE=bluehof;4205898]
Flame suit on and this is going to be a LONG response. I have not read all pages of this thread so am sure I am not addressing all points made. I am a small animal vet, having worked for two corporate chains and now own my own hospital. I completely understand where people come from regarding budgets and pushy vets. I feel that way when I go to Jiffy Lube. However, there is another side to this conversation.

I did not become a vet to give rabies shots. I went to school to practice veterinary medicine. That includes providing complete preventative medicine and dispensing veterinary medical advice. And yes that means offering clients bloodwork, testing, surgeries, etc. It means giving clients options of care from all the bells and whistles to the most conservative option available. We also no longer live in a society of personal responsibility and hence I am forced to practice “defensive medicine” due to lawsuit liability. We have to always offer and recommend the “highest level of medical care” available. We have to make notation of all declined recommendations. I have a complaint pending right now against me to the State Board from a client that came in with his dog for his “yearly” last October. He declined all services other than a rabies vaccine and exam (only because the exam was required or he would have declined that too). It was noted during the exam that his dog’s gums looked pale and bloodwork recommended, he declined. Two months later his dog died of a hemagiosarcoma and he filed a suit that it should have been diagnosed in October. This suit is still pending and it has taken me a lot of time, money and anguish dealing with this frivolous complaint.

I have a veterinary friend that routinely signed on-line fax script requests. One of her clients bought their HW meds that way and the dog contracted HWD. The client filed suit against my friend as she signed the fax and should have known the product may have been tainted. The client was also pissed off b/c the drug manufacturer would not pay for the HW treatment as the product was purchased on-line. If the HWP had been purchased through their vet (ie; my friend) the manufacturer would have stood behind their product b/c quality control could be accounted for. Hence, this is why I will write a script for a client and they can then submit to where ever they want but I WILL NOT sign a fax request. It is also the reason I recommend not buying HWP on-line. If you think never missing a dose of HWP your dog cannot get HWD you are wrong. NO DRUG IS 100% EFFECTIVE AT ANYTHING. I am treating a collie right now that has never missed a dose of HWP. Thankfully b/c the owner has always bought her meds through us and we have all the records the treatment is being covered by the drug manufacturer (about $600). That is also why I REQUIRE yearly HWT, no waiver out option. The test costs the client $16.50. In my mind too little for me to risk the possible lawsuit b/c in a suit that waiver means diddly squat.

A routine dog yearly at my clinic costs exam $40, 3-yr DHPP $25, HWT $16.50 or 3DX (HWT with tick titer) $44, rabies $16.50, Bord $16.50 (only on boarding or grooming dogs), fecal $22. Bloodwork is recommended on dogs 5-7 years or older at a cost of $68-110 (at least 50% decline and we just note it in the chart). These prices are more than reasonable in my mind but I hear hourly the complaints about cost and “how for those prices I could build a wing on to your hospital”.

I offer vaccine clinics 4 times a year and low cost spay/ neuter prices one week each month. I hear daily how “such and such a date for the vaccine clinic doesn’t work for my schedule. Why can’t you just give me those prices on such and such a date that works for me?”. Or “why isn’t bloodwork included in that $70 spay?”. It doesn’t work that way, low cost clinics are held at SPECIFIC times and dates. But people are selfish, unappreciative and have no respect for me, my staff, or our policies.

Here is my week thus far (true story):
Monday: a man comes in and says his dog hurt his leg and is in his car. Can I come out to just look at it and see if it needs an exam. Well, I explain to him that that is an exam and it cost $40. He walked out pissed only to come back 1 hr later. He then gripes about needing an x-ray as it is so clearly broken and don’t I know that. You can see where this is going.

Tues: a woman comes in with a dog with a huge laceration needing sutures. We give her an estimate of $300. She gripes saying anesthesia is unnecessary and just give it some lidocaine. There is no way I will do that and she leaves saying she won’t even pay for the exam since I didn’t do anything. She finally reluctantly pays the $40 and leaves only to return 2 hrs later after she went to 2 other vets and I can only assume we were the cheapest. We make her pay upfront due to her previous reluctance and she gripes some more. The dog goes home with 45 sutures, a bandage, an ecollar, and strict instructions. Fast forward to today (Thurs) and woman comes in screaming with dog, laceration re-opened, no bandage and ecollar MIA. She explains she couldn’t contain dog, he wouldn’t wear the ecollar, took off his bandage but it is my fault as the sutures weren’t tight enough and the bandage “sucked”. Needless to say she was royally upset about having to pay again for a second repair.

Wed: woman comes in with dying parvo puppy and no $$. I am cruel b/c I won’t treat the puppy for free, how dare I let it die, she has no job, her boyfriend has no job, she is pregnant, etc, etc. Puppy ends up dying and joy, joy another one of her dogs is due to whelp next week.

Thurs: had to deal with above Tues woman again.

Now don’t get me wrong. I have many, thankfully most, clients that I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE. And they are not the ones with all the money. They are the ones that respect me, my staff, my time, my policies. And in return I respect them, their decisions, their limitations. They are not the ones that complain when they come to a vaccine clinic and have to wait on line, they are not the ones that expect me to pay for their animals care. They are the ones that do what they can, are happy to hear my knowledge, understand that I can’t always get to the phone RIGHT THEN but will always call back asap, are happy to pay my prices even if the guy down the street is a few bucks cheaper b/c they respect me. These are the clients I foster and spend my time with. These are the clients I will give a quick look down an ear to see if they are cleaning it well for no charge, the ones I work with on cost and go over ways to save money, the ones I will give the depo shot to their cat and not charge an exam fee, the one I trim toes nails at no charge, etc. If one is going from vet to vet, always griping and complaining maybe, just maybe, it is the vets response to how they are being treated by the client.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for giving good examples of some of the points I was trying to make, especially the “defensive medicine”. It’s a shame you have to do it, but a few clients can spoil it for all…

I wish you a nice quiet 4th weekend (because it never is in SAM…)

[dalpal]

[QUOTE=foggybok;4205912]
THat’s a little funny…off course someone is going to read it, why would they take it in the first place if nobody was going to read it… I’ve seen extra fees for having a board certified radiologist read it. Someone must be taking lessons from human med, where the costs are often split out that way…

I suspect the receptionist was wrong about the digital not being part of it. Digital is more expensive and people will charge for it…

And you are probably right, it is the practice managers setting prices… In many places the vets have NO say at all in what they charge…[/QUOTE]

It wasn’t the RECEPTIONIST…I talked to the OFFICE MANAGER. I doubt seriously she was wrong about their prices.

[dalpal]

[QUOTE=bluehof;4205898]
Flame suit on and this is going to be a LONG response. I have not read all pages of this thread so am sure I am not addressing all points made. I am a small animal vet, having worked for two corporate chains and now own my own hospital. I completely understand where people come from regarding budgets and pushy vets. I feel that way when I go to Jiffy Lube. However, there is another side to this conversation.

I did not become a vet to give rabies shots. I went to school to practice veterinary medicine. That includes providing complete preventative medicine and dispensing veterinary medical advice. And yes that means offering clients bloodwork, testing, surgeries, etc. It means giving clients options of care from all the bells and whistles to the most conservative option available. We also no longer live in a society of personal responsibility and hence I am forced to practice “defensive medicine” due to lawsuit liability. We have to always offer and recommend the “highest level of medical care” available. We have to make notation of all declined recommendations. I have a complaint pending right now against me to the State Board from a client that came in with his dog for his “yearly” last October. He declined all services other than a rabies vaccine and exam (only because the exam was required or he would have declined that too). It was noted during the exam that his dog’s gums looked pale and bloodwork recommended, he declined. Two months later his dog died of a hemagiosarcoma and he filed a suit that it should have been diagnosed in October. This suit is still pending and it has taken me a lot of time, money and anguish dealing with this frivolous complaint.

I have a veterinary friend that routinely signed on-line fax script requests. One of her clients bought their HW meds that way and the dog contracted HWD. The client filed suit against my friend as she signed the fax and should have known the product may have been tainted. The client was also pissed off b/c the drug manufacturer would not pay for the HW treatment as the product was purchased on-line. If the HWP had been purchased through their vet (ie; my friend) the manufacturer would have stood behind their product b/c quality control could be accounted for. Hence, this is why I will write a script for a client and they can then submit to where ever they want but I WILL NOT sign a fax request. It is also the reason I recommend not buying HWP on-line. If you think never missing a dose of HWP your dog cannot get HWD you are wrong. NO DRUG IS 100% EFFECTIVE AT ANYTHING. I am treating a collie right now that has never missed a dose of HWP. Thankfully b/c the owner has always bought her meds through us and we have all the records the treatment is being covered by the drug manufacturer (about $600). That is also why I REQUIRE yearly HWT, no waiver out option. The test costs the client $16.50. In my mind too little for me to risk the possible lawsuit b/c in a suit that waiver means diddly squat.

A routine dog yearly at my clinic costs exam $40, 3-yr DHPP $25, HWT $16.50 or 3DX (HWT with tick titer) $44, rabies $16.50, Bord $16.50 (only on boarding or grooming dogs), fecal $22. Bloodwork is recommended on dogs 5-7 years or older at a cost of $68-110 (at least 50% decline and we just note it in the chart). These prices are more than reasonable in my mind but I hear hourly the complaints about cost and “how for those prices I could build a wing on to your hospital”.

I offer vaccine clinics 4 times a year and low cost spay/ neuter prices one week each month. I hear daily how “such and such a date for the vaccine clinic doesn’t work for my schedule. Why can’t you just give me those prices on such and such a date that works for me?”. Or “why isn’t bloodwork included in that $70 spay?”. It doesn’t work that way, low cost clinics are held at SPECIFIC times and dates. But people are selfish, unappreciative and have no respect for me, my staff, or our policies.

Here is my week thus far (true story):
Monday: a man comes in and says his dog hurt his leg and is in his car. Can I come out to just look at it and see if it needs an exam. Well, I explain to him that that is an exam and it cost $40. He walked out pissed only to come back 1 hr later. He then gripes about needing an x-ray as it is so clearly broken and don’t I know that. You can see where this is going.

Tues: a woman comes in with a dog with a huge laceration needing sutures. We give her an estimate of $300. She gripes saying anesthesia is unnecessary and just give it some lidocaine. There is no way I will do that and she leaves saying she won’t even pay for the exam since I didn’t do anything. She finally reluctantly pays the $40 and leaves only to return 2 hrs later after she went to 2 other vets and I can only assume we were the cheapest. We make her pay upfront due to her previous reluctance and she gripes some more. The dog goes home with 45 sutures, a bandage, an ecollar, and strict instructions. Fast forward to today (Thurs) and woman comes in screaming with dog, laceration re-opened, no bandage and ecollar MIA. She explains she couldn’t contain dog, he wouldn’t wear the ecollar, took off his bandage but it is my fault as the sutures weren’t tight enough and the bandage “sucked”. Needless to say she was royally upset about having to pay again for a second repair.

Wed: woman comes in with dying parvo puppy and no $$. I am cruel b/c I won’t treat the puppy for free, how dare I let it die, she has no job, her boyfriend has no job, she is pregnant, etc, etc. Puppy ends up dying and joy, joy another one of her dogs is due to whelp next week.

Thurs: had to deal with above Tues woman again.

Now don’t get me wrong. I have many, thankfully most, clients that I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE. And they are not the ones with all the money. They are the ones that respect me, my staff, my time, my policies. And in return I respect them, their decisions, their limitations. They are not the ones that complain when they come to a vaccine clinic and have to wait on line, they are not the ones that expect me to pay for their animals care. They are the ones that do what they can, are happy to hear my knowledge, understand that I can’t always get to the phone RIGHT THEN but will always call back asap, are happy to pay my prices even if the guy down the street is a few bucks cheaper b/c they respect me. These are the clients I foster and spend my time with. These are the clients I will give a quick look down an ear to see if they are cleaning it well for no charge, the ones I work with on cost and go over ways to save money, the ones I will give the depo shot to their cat and not charge an exam fee, the one I trim toes nails at no charge, etc. If one is going from vet to vet, always griping and complaining maybe, just maybe, it is the vets response to how they are being treated by the client.[/QUOTE]

After reading your post, I only have one thing to ask…“Will you open up shop in my town?” Now your prices are reasonable. I would never beeotch about those prices…I’m beeotching because my vet’s office is charging about 3x what you are.

[JSwan]

Glad you had a good ride, foggybok!

I know I need to get a life but I continued thinking about this thread last night while snapping beans. I snapped a bushel of beans so I thought a long time.

Most everyone has made absolutely terrific points and it seems that when we get down to brass tacks - pretty much everyone agrees, but we all still struggle with costs.

Maybe there are ways to cut costs, but still generate a fine profit. Like one poster wrote - she didn’t become a vet to give rabies shots - she became a vet to practice medicine.

As a patient, I have seen a change in human medicine, but I don’t know how effective or cost reducing it has been. I’ve just seen it and wonder if vet care could be this way.

I see greater roles being afforded lay staff - nurses, PA’s, - they are providing more direct care, including exams, at a lower cost than a physician. Perhaps a physician or nurse can chime in and expand on that or provide insight into the pros and cons of that greater role and direct care.

But it seems to me that - let’s say I call up my doctor and say hey - I need a flu and tetanus shot. It’s flu season and I run a farm by myself and I work around horses and sharp rusty implements. I go in - pay my co-pay and see the nurse who takes my vitals and weight, makes notations, and administers the injections. He/she bills at a lower rate than a physician and the actual cost of health care is lower than had a physician administered the vaccines.

In the ER - I’ll often see a physician’s assistant and nurse though access to a physician is always available of course. Yet - I receive great health care and it is delivered at a lower cost. Um - I don’t actually go to the ER that often but I foxhunt and… well… foxhunters are a bit of a standing joke at the local ER.

The practice of law has become similar. It used to be that laypeople were limited to setting appointments, maybe drafting a document, typing, filing, some reasearch - that’s it.

Now that role has expanded tremendously - with higher education and certifications available, laypeople like paralegals can provide direct representation in administrative matters with federal agencies (like SSA), paralegals can bill (at a lower rate), the role in direct and indirect representation or service has just expanded - and that expansion has made legal services available to the public at a lower cost. (well… it’s supposed to anyway.) But still quality service.

I know vet techs do more than they used to, and I noticed in my most recent bill (the big ER bill) that they do bill. Which is fine and I have NO complaint.

What I am thinking is that the role could be expanded further, in a manner that provides a tiered but still quality approach to vet care. For basic care - you know - the routine shots, basic exam, but billed accordingly. Right now what I am seeing is that a vet is charging a premium and ‘vet rate’ for a simple vaccine. From a practical standpoint, this would appear to be an inefficient use of the vet’s time.

[coloredhorse]

@wendy;4205102

How could you live with yourself after killing your best friend over a few thousand dollars?

Wendy, this is a bit off the topic of this thread, but when it comes to euthanasia money is NOT necessarily the sole and defining criteria. For instance, under my philosophy, it would have been the height of cruelty to put my ancient calico cat through the stress of surgery and chemotherapy, not to mention the hospitalization these would require, to attempt to cure the cancer that was killing her. Much better to choose a course of palliative care and keep her happy and pain-free as long as we were able, then send her to her rest cradled in my arms.

Humans can CHOOSE to face the consequences of heroic, live-saving measures. Animals only know that they hurt and are confused and frightened. I’ve never regretted letting a pet go “early.” I HAVE regretted every time I’ve tried the “anything it takes” route … and those regrets have absolutely nothing to do with the money spent.

And as far as human euthanasia – including that theoretical cancer-ridden child you mentioned in another post – I eagerly await the day that is a legal option. Death is not the worst thing that can happen to someone.

[HighFlyinBey1]

[QUOTE=coloredhorse;4206078]
And as far as human euthanasia – including that theoretical cancer-ridden child you mentioned in another post – I eagerly await the day that is a legal option. Death is not the worst thing that can happen to someone.[/QUOTE]

Here here!! The 6-week combination of chemo & radiation was hands-down the most hellacious thing I have ever been put through. I completely empathize with the Minnesota teen that ran away with his mother rather than do chemo. I understand his POV.

I’m not ready to die, so I put up with treatment, however, should it recur or metastasize, my long term survival rate drops from 90% to 20%. I will have to weigh my own quality of life issues with the hope the hell of treatment gives. My mother was actually stunned to hear that I would seriously consider NO treatment for a recurrence while my son (one of the 45 million uninsured US citizens because he’s unemployed & considered too old to be on my policy even though I foot all his bills) is behind my decision all the way.

I watched Farrah’s Story. The worst part was seeing bits of her in that fluffy bed, just lying there dying. It took more weeks for her to die. She was legally prohibited from ending the pain, even if she had wanted to.

To let that happen to an animal is cause for charges of neglect or abuse, but for a human? Heavens no. We must prolong life at all costs! Tell me that the last weeks of Farrah’s “life” did not violate “first do no harm.” Assisting an animal in that situation is a gift. Assisting a human is murder. That makes NO sense.

when it comes to euthanasia money is NOT necessarily the sole and defining criteria.

Getting back to vet-related issues, I agree with this as well. My 4 year old gelding severed a tendon & artery. The vet thought she could make him pasture or light riding sound so I hauled him to surgery. The damage so extensive that he would have required antibiotics to the tune of $100 per day for a week minimum, then there was the long stall rest and still no guarantee that he would be comfortable for the next 30 years of his life (which would have been in my care since rehoming him would have been out of the question).

I had my son, 3 more horses, 5 cats, 2 dogs and was married with a mortgage and 2 car payments.

I could not justify heroic means to save Marcus’ life at the expense of the living, nor could I justify keeping him alive and in pain for 30 years of Wisconsin winters.

I did the best thing for all involved and put him down on the table.

$1000 later and all I had to show was a dead horse. What hurt even more is that my regular vet and back-up vet (both unavailable at the time) told me they would not even have suggested surgery because of the risk of infection & long-term quality of life. They both said they would have told me to put him down at the farm.

The vet who came did nothing wrong by offering surgery. She truly thought she could save him until she saw the x-rays, then it was “if this were my horse, I would put him down.”

I learned from that experience. I love my animals dearly, but no heroic efforts. I have to think of the survivors.

My Harry cat had a heart issue crop up in 2007. My vet told me that I could have a kitty EKG done, to the tune of $400. I said, “For a cat? No, I don’t think so. There’s no guarantee he can be fixed and why put him through trauma he can’t understand? I want to keep him comfortable.” She was very happy to work with me in that manner and formulated plans in case future issues popped up (I’m also typing this from her home since she trusts me to care for her own animals while she’s on vacation with her family!)

None of it was needed because Harry’s huge, loving heart gave out this past April 24. He had a great life. He was literally the happiest creature I’ve ever met. He was in his own home surrounded by the 4 girls he raised from kittens and the humans who spoiled him rotten.

I also work for my vet’s husband. When Harry died, he left work and came to my apartment to help me find the best deal on cremation. He then drove me & Harry’s body to that vet’s office. It was not his wife’s practice, but that of a classmate of hers. My vet is 45 minutes away and I pass numerous other good vets. I don’t mind the drive because I know my animals & I are getting the best care possible, as evidenced with how they handled Harry’s death.

I have NO regrets. In fact, I wish I could be as lucky to die as happily as Harry did.

[grayarabpony]

I have to say that what I really don’t like about bluehof’s response is equating idiots who won’t pay for basic care with people, well, like me, who spare no expense in their animals’ care and are knowledgeable.

I have had a hard time finding a small animal vet that I like, and quite frankly the problem does not reside with me. :lol: Would you like to hear the stories? Only one involves greed; the rest of the problems revolved around just not practicing good medicine, and vets who were unwilling to learn from their mistakes.

Of course, who knows, you may just be ponyfixer posting under an alter. lol

[SLW]

@foggybok;4205893

The stats are from the yearly AVMA survey. You can find it yourself online. The median salary for Food animal exclusive vets was 18K more than for Equine and companion animal. They separate out government and industry, so no those were not included. It does include vets on large private production facilities though.

Here’s the link. The link the previous post put up did have the same breakdown near the bottom, but was starting salaries (which are much lower)

http://www.avma.org/reference/marketstats/usvets.asp

Also practitioners that are food animal predominant, but not food animal exclusive have a median salary that is much lower than the food animal exclusive group (same as equine).

Yes, a preg check much cheaper for a cow, but you don’t see people preg checking 150 head of horses in a day either… My old roommate has done that on more than one occasion…her arm barely lived to tell the tale…

Thanks for the link and I do not deny what is there. That average high salary on food animal only vets (1.8% of the total number counted) is tipped up due to a small percentage of corporate employed/govt only FA vets.

We do preg checks at one cattle producers farm. The cows are caught, in pens and ready to go down the ally to the chute and he has hired help to keep the girls moving. When 120 head are to be checked I allow 2 minutes a cow plus 30 extra minutes. That time is for any who might need injections. This will be a 3 job- if everything goes ‘routine’. The preg checks will generate $360 plus a $44 farm call fee. Allowing the 20 minute drive time to and from Doc will be gone from the clinic at least 3.5 hours. In one hour the other Doc can preg check 6 mares and generate nearly the same income (sans farm call)- and not be nearly as tired or stinky.

[cloudyandcallie]

Sigh, I miss Briarcliff Animal Hospital in Atlanta. Lots of vets, 24 hour care with the nice security guard there at night, great care. I could pick up and drop off 7 days a week, early morning and late at night. And the vets gave the shots while I was present and talked to me about routine and exotic diseases that my pets presented.

One thing I’ve noticed now is that a lot of vets have too many vet techs around here. They are paying salaries to them so the price of routine care has gone up. I don’t mind paying for services, I did have the $20000 cat at Briarcliff after all, but I do mind paying for a bunch of people to do things that I want the vet to do, including talking to me.
I’d rather the vet charge me more, and do all the work and talking, than charge me a lot and have all those vet techs, there must be a dozen of them for the 4 vets at one practice that I quit using. I pay for the vet to give shots and examine and talk to me. One vet tech per doctor should be enough.

[SLW]

CC- I agree with you, I want to see the vet.

In our area it is the vet tech, or whom ever the vet employees, that can do the dental cleaning on your animal, pull blood for labs, shoot the radiographs and such- in other words, they can do the preliminary work and the vet will interpret the radiograph and check the teeth/gums for disease, etc. and provide the medical knowledge. A few years back the industry standard was 2.2 support persons per vet.

[foggybok]

[QUOTE=dalpal;4206029]
It wasn’t the RECEPTIONIST…I talked to the OFFICE MANAGER. I doubt seriously she was wrong about their prices.[/QUOTE]

Sorry, I misread

Yes, of course the office manager should know…

Is this a corporate practice?

[foggybok]

[QUOTE=SLW;4206201]
Thanks for the link and I do not deny what is there. That average high salary on food animal only vets (1.8% of the total number counted) is tipped up due to a small percentage of corporate employed/govt only FA vets.

We do preg checks at one cattle producers farm. The cows are caught, in pens and ready to go down the ally to the chute and he has hired help to keep the girls moving. When 120 head are to be checked I allow 2 minutes a cow plus 30 extra minutes. That time is for any who might need injections. This will be a 3 job- if everything goes ‘routine’. The preg checks will generate $360 plus a $44 farm call fee. Allowing the 20 minute drive time to and from Doc will be gone from the clinic at least 3.5 hours. In one hour the other Doc can preg check 6 mares and generate nearly the same income (sans farm call)- and not be nearly as tired or stinky. [/QUOTE]

They separate out govt/coprorate into into a different category, it’s in the chart below, so that’s not where the difference is…

I imagine the high end is made up of production animal specialists… But since it is the median, not the mean, it isn’t skewed so much. 50% of FA exclusive practitioners made >109K that year… Of course since it’s the median, you don’t see the low end very well either. I guarantee my old roommate with 16 years of practice under her belt makes less than 60K… But she is in a very poor ag area.

I’m sure it’s very dependent on the area…where are you guys?

And yes, there is not much more tiring that full time food animal work (talking about the down in the trenches kind, not herd health…)

And yes, there are easier ways to make money than preg checking 120 cows…but there probably aren’t as many opportunities for that…

[pony_grandma]

[QUOTE=coloredhorse;4206078]
Death is not the worst thing that can happen to someone.[/QUOTE] zipping up my flamesuit.

I have had this thought for a long time - remember the religious zealots that used to come around when you had a baby born wrong - that they used to try to comfort you by saying that it was god’s will that the baby would die and that it is the way of nature? Now these are the same right-to-lifers that come around and say that you should exhaust every last emotional and financial resource to extend a life that has no quality or hope, and one that suffers pain.

I am not trying to make a judgment here, just give an observation.

[foggybok]

[QUOTE=JSwan;4206059]
Glad you had a good ride, foggybok!

I know I need to get a life but I continued thinking about this thread last night while snapping beans. I snapped a bushel of beans so I thought a long time.

Most everyone has made absolutely terrific points and it seems that when we get down to brass tacks - pretty much everyone agrees, but we all still struggle with costs.

Maybe there are ways to cut costs, but still generate a fine profit. Like one poster wrote - she didn’t become a vet to give rabies shots - she became a vet to practice medicine.

As a patient, I have seen a change in human medicine, but I don’t know how effective or cost reducing it has been. I’ve just seen it and wonder if vet care could be this way.

I see greater roles being afforded lay staff - nurses, PA’s, - they are providing more direct care, including exams, at a lower cost than a physician. Perhaps a physician or nurse can chime in and expand on that or provide insight into the pros and cons of that greater role and direct care.

But it seems to me that - let’s say I call up my doctor and say hey - I need a flu and tetanus shot. It’s flu season and I run a farm by myself and I work around horses and sharp rusty implements. I go in - pay my co-pay and see the nurse who takes my vitals and weight, makes notations, and administers the injections. He/she bills at a lower rate than a physician and the actual cost of health care is lower than had a physician administered the vaccines.

In the ER - I’ll often see a physician’s assistant and nurse though access to a physician is always available of course. Yet - I receive great health care and it is delivered at a lower cost. Um - I don’t actually go to the ER that often but I foxhunt and… well… foxhunters are a bit of a standing joke at the local ER.

The practice of law has become similar. It used to be that laypeople were limited to setting appointments, maybe drafting a document, typing, filing, some reasearch - that’s it.

Now that role has expanded tremendously - with higher education and certifications available, laypeople like paralegals can provide direct representation in administrative matters with federal agencies (like SSA), paralegals can bill (at a lower rate), the role in direct and indirect representation or service has just expanded - and that expansion has made legal services available to the public at a lower cost. (well… it’s supposed to anyway.) But still quality service.

I know vet techs do more than they used to, and I noticed in my most recent bill (the big ER bill) that they do bill. Which is fine and I have NO complaint.

What I am thinking is that the role could be expanded further, in a manner that provides a tiered but still quality approach to vet care. For basic care - you know - the routine shots, basic exam, but billed accordingly. Right now what I am seeing is that a vet is charging a premium and ‘vet rate’ for a simple vaccine. From a practical standpoint, this would appear to be an inefficient use of the vet’s time.[/QUOTE]

Riding is always good! Another beautiful day in the making…

You have some good thoughts, but I think veterinary medicine has been way ahead of human in that regard, especially in the SA area. Most SA practices I know rely heavily on technician help already. There are also pretty clear laws about what they can and can not do…

One thing that has not come up yet is whether these high priced practices are “specialty” places. When I graduated most specialists worked in academic settings. These days specialists are working in regular practices and in general they have higher salaries. Those extra years in internship and residency count for something… So radiographs read by a specialist are often much higher than those read by a generalist… Of course you don’t need to be a specialist to give vaccines, but if a practice is supporting specialists, their prices are likely higher all around…

Sun is shining…I’m outta here!

[foggybok]

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;4206173]
I have to say that what I really don’t like about bluehof’s response is equating idiots who won’t pay for basic care with people, well, like me, who spare no expense in their animals’ care and are knowledgeable.

I have had a hard time finding a small animal vet that I like, and quite frankly the problem does not reside with me. :lol: Would you like to hear the stories? Only one involves greed; the rest of the problems revolved around just not practicing good medicine, and vets who were unwilling to learn from their mistakes.

Of course, who knows, you may just be ponyfixer posting under an alter. lol[/QUOTE]

I don’t think he/she was equating folks like you with the folks that won’t pay…any more than you are saying all vets are money grubbing liars… There are bad vets and there are bad clients, fortunately for all, they are the minority in both cases…

rather just trying to show what it looks like from the other side and explain why we are often forced to recommend the most comprehensive approach and how even when we do, it can still bite you in the behind…

oops, I said I was going outside… This time I really am (looking out my door to the beautiful blue sky and my lazy butt ponies snarfing down in the pasture…)

[grayarabpony]

OK, I know you’re outside now, but I’ll reply anyway …:lol:

Yes, I know there is another side. Most heartbreaking are the ones where the animals could be saved with a good prognosis, and the owners won’t pay… unfortunately there are a lot of people who don’t take good care of their animals. When I was growing up our neighbors on each side dumped their female cats rather than get them spayed. We found out about it after the fact, sadly. I still can’t believe they did that to their pets. One of our cats was one I found in a park, nearly starved and pregnant.

[dr_j]

This is an interesting thread.

Didn’t know we had so many veterinary practice consultants "in the house’. LOL

Keep in mind in any veterinary practice 55% of your clients provide almost 100% of your income. The other 45% - well you figure it out. So veterinary medicine will always be geared toward those 55%- as it should be.

[JSwan]

[QUOTE=dr j;4208031]
So veterinary medicine will always be geared toward those 55%- as it should be.[/QUOTE]

Well - I guess that shoots down the assertion that veterinarians are primarily concerned about practicing medicine. :rolleyes:

No matter how much the standard of care has risen it still does not justify the egregious costs associated with routine veterinary care - which often exceeds the costs for HUMANs to obtain similar care.

Many vets take great exception to people treating their pets at home, or with products designed for other species, or purchasing vaccines and products off the internet. Ostensibly this is due to their concerns over quality vet care for the animal in question - and now you are asserting it’s really all about money.

Which is what we all thought in the first place. Money is the primary motivation.

Thanks for confirming what we suspected.

No reasonable person wants to compromise on veterinary care for their pet or livestock.

The reason we have to is because of the outrageous prices for ROUTINE CARE and increasingly exclusive and upscale nature of small animal practices. If y’all keep going on the path you are on - that 55% is going to start dropping. Actually - it already has. If those percentages are correct 45% of animal owners cannot afford the prices you are charging for routine care.

Perhaps instead of trying to foist expensive prescription diets, pills, potions and treatments trying to pay for the granite countertops - you should focus on reaching the 45% of clients that you’re pricing out of your practice.