Small animal vet rant

Hey veterinarian/vet techs…question

I have a question…

My friend has a 50 pound dog…she had a lot of heartworm meds left over for her 10 pound dog (puppy at the time)…she ran out of heartworm meds (heartguard) She had 2 10 pound pills left and then apparently a couple of other sizes…not sure which. But she crushed up the pills and made the amount equal to the 50 size pill. Being a nurse, I trust that she knows her grams, etc. :lol:

Okay, so she goes into the vet’s office Yesterday (same vet’s office that I’ve been fussing about on this thread) to pick up heartworm meds. They wanted to know why they haven’t seen the dog in x amount of months (okay fair question before selling heartworm meds…but let’s face it, many of us buy from equine vets, etc)…when she told them what she had done…she said the receptionist’s jaw dropped and said…“YOU CAN’T DO THAT. WHAT IF THE CONCENTRATION OF ONE OF THE PILLS WAS OFF AND YOU DIDN’T GET THE RIGHT AMOUNT INTO THE MIX” :confused: Basically she was saying that some of the pills might have the medicine right in the middle and not on the outside of the chew???

Is this true? My friend looked at her and said…“I am assuming that they make this medicine in one big block and then cut the pieces…I doubt very seriously that they make each individual block alone”

Wouldn’t it be okay to crush up enough small dog pills as long as you had the dosage correct???

Just curious.

Sounds over the top to me.

Well, I would assume you could do it, but it would probably be easier for her to return the meds for a credit and purchase at the proper dosage.

[QUOTE=dalpal;4205671]
Agreed. Pancakes this isn’t a thread gripping about people/vets like yourself…there are MANY WONDERFUL veterinarians in the world. But as in any other profession…there are greedy people looking to take advantge of someone through their pet. Look at some of the outrageous bills that some of us have quoted on this thread…the one about th 1800.00 dental with a 92 year old owner is heartbreaking.

I pay my farrier well, he does an awesome job…I would never complain. I do not mind paying fair prices for good care. I think most of us are upset (or at least I am) that there is such a wild difference in costs between practices. That’s why I called mine up today and talked to them. Didn’t change anything, but I felt like I needed to let them know that I am not going to be charged out the butt for services that someone else will do for half.

It’s one thing to make a good living…another to price gauge, try to push services/drugs on people to make more money. Then act offended when they say no thanks.[/QUOTE]

Ok, that makes me feel better. It’s hard though, since everyone started griping about how awful small animal vets can be…and then I feel terrible because that’s what I am GOING to be… you know? And then you have certain posters here that make sweeping statements about how all small animal vets are money-grubbing liars…

I guess a few bad apples spoils the bunch…and it works both ways, with vets, and with clients.

I did not see any report which listed the salary for a practicing food animal only vet other than this: "The number of jobs for large-animal veterinarians is likely to grow more slowly than jobs for companion-animal veterinarians. Nevertheless, job prospects should be better for veterinarians who specialize in farm animals because of lower earnings in the farm-animal specialty and because many veterinarians do not want to work in rural or isolated areas…" As for ‘large animal’, the report does not break down the percentages of large animal species served.

The report does show that being a vet for the federal govt pays more on the average than a private practitioner. :wink:

[QUOTE=Rubyfree;4205722]
Well, I would assume you could do it, but it would probably be easier for her to return the meds for a credit and purchase at the proper dosage.[/QUOTE]

LOL…true…but it had already been done. I guess I am just amazed at the receptionist’s reasoning for NOT doing it???

No it’s not. You don’t know what you’re talking about.

I crunched the numbers for insurance, and there really was no gain to having it, with 4 animals.

[QUOTE=dalpal;4205691]
…“YOU CAN’T DO THAT. WHAT IF THE CONCENTRATION OF ONE OF THE PILLS WAS OFF AND YOU DIDN’T GET THE RIGHT AMOUNT INTO THE MIX” :confused: Basically she was saying that some of the pills might have the medicine right in the middle and not on the outside of the chew???

.[/QUOTE]

that’s sort of what they told my mom concerning buying the meds online (even with a Rx) They said the online companies can’t be trusted to give the right dosage. My mom was like “I ask for the 50-100lb- it’s the blue box” how hard is that? Do the vet offices really check each pill to make sure it’s chemically the right mixture? Or do they think we’re so stupid that if the company accidentally shipped us the wrong box we would blindly feed it to the dog anyway- (if there’s a Westie on th container I usually know it’s not for my huge dog! :lol: )

[QUOTE=Pancakes;4205743]
Ok, that makes me feel better. It’s hard though, since everyone started griping about how awful small animal vets can be…and then I feel terrible because that’s what I am GOING to be… you know? And then you have certain posters here that make sweeping statements about how all small animal vets are money-grubbing liars…

I guess a few bad apples spoils the bunch…and it works both ways, with vets, and with clients.[/QUOTE]

Absolutely. I love the actual vet at the clinic…this kills me…but the clinic has priced me out of using her anymore. :frowning: I told the office manager that I love her and hate this, but I have no other choice due to their escalating prices.

[QUOTE=Pancakes;4205743]
Ok, that makes me feel better. It’s hard though, since everyone started griping about how awful small animal vets can be…and then I feel terrible because that’s what I am GOING to be… you know? And then you have certain posters here that make sweeping statements about how all small animal vets are money-grubbing liars…

I guess a few bad apples spoils the bunch…and it works both ways, with vets, and with clients.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, well, how about what people say about doctors… and some of it IS true. :no:

KV Vet has 180 for about the same price. I asked my vet to write me a script for them because she doesn’t sell that size, and she did, they will also price match on heartworm if you bring in the page from the internet showing the lower price. I like my vet, but my experience with some others lately, especially those in an emergency hospital were horrific, ignorant vets and beyond stupid prices. Because they can… taking your pet to the hospital in the middle of the night is little more than a hostage situation.

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;4205772]
Yeah, well, how about what people say about doctors… and some of it IS true. :no:[/QUOTE]

What about it? Not sure what you’re getting at…

Excuse me? You can’t see the correlation? Oh well…

Look, there are vets out there who aren’t very good, or who do actually try to swindle people. Don’t be surprised that you’re reading complaints on a thread titled the way it is.

If you’re a good vet people won’t complain about you. If you don’t want to read these complaints, don’t read the thread. I doubt anyone is making anything up.

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;4205806]
Excuse me? You can’t see the correlation? Oh well…

Look, there are vets out there who aren’t very good, or who do actually try to swindle people. Don’t be surprised that you’re reading complaints on a thread titled the way it is.

If you’re a good vet people won’t complain about you. If you don’t want to read these complaints, don’t read the thread. I doubt anyone is making anything up.[/QUOTE]

I never said they were making things up! It was the inflammatory comments about how all vet are cheats, liars, money-grubbing, stupid, etc that got to me. I just wanted people to know that NOT all small animal vets are like this, and if someone feels unsatisfied, maybe they should find a different vet or have a conversation with their vet (communication often is the most lacking). I’m not sure what correlation you’re talking about? Of course not all doctors are perfect either. I didn’t think that was the issue here though?

The correlation is: there are good doctors and bad doctors. It seems like you hear more about bad doctors. Maybe it’s not true, but it seems that way. People are going to have bad experiences with vets and complain about it. You might as well get used to it now, and not be so sensitive about it.

I don’t think most people believe most vets are greedy, money-grubbing people. Why would they go into veterinary medicine in the first place? When I think of vets I definitely don’t think of rich people. And yet some clients have been burned, and are venting here. It doesn’t mean everyone hates small animal vets, that’s silly. It’s just some people venting about bad experiences they have had.

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;4205838]
The correlation is: there are good doctors and bad doctors. It seems like you hear more about bad doctors. Maybe it’s not true, but it seems that way. People are going to have bad experiences with vets and complain about it. You might as well get used to it now, and not be so sensitive about it.

I don’t think most people believe most vets are greedy, money-grubbing people. Why would they go into veterinary medicine in the first place? When I think of vets I definitely don’t think of rich people. And yet some clients have been burned, and are venting here. It doesn’t mean everyone hates small animal vets, that’s silly. It’s just some people venting about bad experiences they have had.[/QUOTE]

Yep…that’s right. And a matter of fact, my beef isn’t even with the VET…it’s with the owners/business folks. I doubt seriously that the vets are getting anything out of these ridiculous price hikes.

And would someone please tell me why I not only have to pay for an xray to be taken, but now I have to pay for it to be read??? Okay, if they get it wrong, am I going to get my money back? We’re not talking about a specialist coming in to look at an xray they didn’t take…this just really irritates the snot out of me. The office manager told me proudly that the 175.00 charge for 2 xrays included the reading fee and to be careful because most of those lower quotes probably didn’t include that service" All I could think was “YOU’VE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME” I remember when the practice started tacking on a 30.00 reading fee to their 50 dollar xrays…I thought WTF???

[QUOTE=SLW;4205452]
Where is your source on that statement? It could only be true if you are factoring in all the vets on govt payroll which is vastly differently from an actual vet who does only food animal.

You know ‘food animals’ are a product and the expense to get them to market must be low. That is why a manual cow preg check is $3 and a mare is $40, more if it is a US preg check. Castrate a calf- $3, castrate a colt- $120.

Where I work we do enough food animals and I quote him “to satisfy the farm boy still left in me”. It does not pay the bills, no way, even if that was the only work we were looking for.[/QUOTE]

The stats are from the yearly AVMA survey. You can find it yourself online. The median salary for Food animal exclusive vets was 18K more than for Equine and companion animal. They separate out government and industry, so no those were not included. It does include vets on large private production facilities though.

Here’s the link. The link the previous post put up did have the same breakdown near the bottom, but was starting salaries (which are much lower)

http://www.avma.org/reference/marketstats/usvets.asp

Also practitioners that are food animal predominant, but not food animal exclusive have a median salary that is much lower than the food animal exclusive group (same as equine).

Yes, a preg check much cheaper for a cow, but you don’t see people preg checking 150 head of horses in a day either… My old roommate has done that on more than one occasion…her arm barely lived to tell the tale…:slight_smile:

rant from the other side

Flame suit on and this is going to be a LONG response. I have not read all pages of this thread so am sure I am not addressing all points made. I am a small animal vet, having worked for two corporate chains and now own my own hospital. I completely understand where people come from regarding budgets and pushy vets. I feel that way when I go to Jiffy Lube. However, there is another side to this conversation.

I did not become a vet to give rabies shots. I went to school to practice veterinary medicine. That includes providing complete preventative medicine and dispensing veterinary medical advice. And yes that means offering clients bloodwork, testing, surgeries, etc. It means giving clients options of care from all the bells and whistles to the most conservative option available. We also no longer live in a society of personal responsibility and hence I am forced to practice “defensive medicine” due to lawsuit liability. We have to always offer and recommend the “highest level of medical care” available. We have to make notation of all declined recommendations. I have a complaint pending right now against me to the State Board from a client that came in with his dog for his “yearly” last October. He declined all services other than a rabies vaccine and exam (only because the exam was required or he would have declined that too). It was noted during the exam that his dog’s gums looked pale and bloodwork recommended, he declined. Two months later his dog died of a hemagiosarcoma and he filed a suit that it should have been diagnosed in October. This suit is still pending and it has taken me a lot of time, money and anguish dealing with this frivolous complaint.

I have a veterinary friend that routinely signed on-line fax script requests. One of her clients bought their HW meds that way and the dog contracted HWD. The client filed suit against my friend as she signed the fax and should have known the product may have been tainted. The client was also pissed off b/c the drug manufacturer would not pay for the HW treatment as the product was purchased on-line. If the HWP had been purchased through their vet (ie; my friend) the manufacturer would have stood behind their product b/c quality control could be accounted for. Hence, this is why I will write a script for a client and they can then submit to where ever they want but I WILL NOT sign a fax request. It is also the reason I recommend not buying HWP on-line. If you think never missing a dose of HWP your dog cannot get HWD you are wrong. NO DRUG IS 100% EFFECTIVE AT ANYTHING. I am treating a collie right now that has never missed a dose of HWP. Thankfully b/c the owner has always bought her meds through us and we have all the records the treatment is being covered by the drug manufacturer (about $600). That is also why I REQUIRE yearly HWT, no waiver out option. The test costs the client $16.50. In my mind too little for me to risk the possible lawsuit b/c in a suit that waiver means diddly squat.

A routine dog yearly at my clinic costs exam $40, 3-yr DHPP $25, HWT $16.50 or 3DX (HWT with tick titer) $44, rabies $16.50, Bord $16.50 (only on boarding or grooming dogs), fecal $22. Bloodwork is recommended on dogs 5-7 years or older at a cost of $68-110 (at least 50% decline and we just note it in the chart). These prices are more than reasonable in my mind but I hear hourly the complaints about cost and “how for those prices I could build a wing on to your hospital”.

I offer vaccine clinics 4 times a year and low cost spay/ neuter prices one week each month. I hear daily how “such and such a date for the vaccine clinic doesn’t work for my schedule. Why can’t you just give me those prices on such and such a date that works for me?”. Or “why isn’t bloodwork included in that $70 spay?”. It doesn’t work that way, low cost clinics are held at SPECIFIC times and dates. But people are selfish, unappreciative and have no respect for me, my staff, or our policies.

Here is my week thus far (true story):
Monday: a man comes in and says his dog hurt his leg and is in his car. Can I come out to just look at it and see if it needs an exam. Well, I explain to him that that is an exam and it cost $40. He walked out pissed only to come back 1 hr later. He then gripes about needing an x-ray as it is so clearly broken and don’t I know that. You can see where this is going.

Tues: a woman comes in with a dog with a huge laceration needing sutures. We give her an estimate of $300. She gripes saying anesthesia is unnecessary and just give it some lidocaine. There is no way I will do that and she leaves saying she won’t even pay for the exam since I didn’t do anything. She finally reluctantly pays the $40 and leaves only to return 2 hrs later after she went to 2 other vets and I can only assume we were the cheapest. We make her pay upfront due to her previous reluctance and she gripes some more. The dog goes home with 45 sutures, a bandage, an ecollar, and strict instructions. Fast forward to today (Thurs) and woman comes in screaming with dog, laceration re-opened, no bandage and ecollar MIA. She explains she couldn’t contain dog, he wouldn’t wear the ecollar, took off his bandage but it is my fault as the sutures weren’t tight enough and the bandage “sucked”. Needless to say she was royally upset about having to pay again for a second repair.

Wed: woman comes in with dying parvo puppy and no $$. I am cruel b/c I won’t treat the puppy for free, how dare I let it die, she has no job, her boyfriend has no job, she is pregnant, etc, etc. Puppy ends up dying and joy, joy another one of her dogs is due to whelp next week.

Thurs: had to deal with above Tues woman again.

Now don’t get me wrong. I have many, thankfully most, clients that I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE. And they are not the ones with all the money. They are the ones that respect me, my staff, my time, my policies. And in return I respect them, their decisions, their limitations. They are not the ones that complain when they come to a vaccine clinic and have to wait on line, they are not the ones that expect me to pay for their animals care. They are the ones that do what they can, are happy to hear my knowledge, understand that I can’t always get to the phone RIGHT THEN but will always call back asap, are happy to pay my prices even if the guy down the street is a few bucks cheaper b/c they respect me. These are the clients I foster and spend my time with. These are the clients I will give a quick look down an ear to see if they are cleaning it well for no charge, the ones I work with on cost and go over ways to save money, the ones I will give the depo shot to their cat and not charge an exam fee, the one I trim toes nails at no charge, etc. If one is going from vet to vet, always griping and complaining maybe, just maybe, it is the vets response to how they are being treated by the client.

[QUOTE=JSwan;4205285]
Hopefully you’re saddling your horse and not still reading…

I don’t know why a particular vet would charge so much more than another.

What I do know is that I found the price difference egregious and he lost a client.

So he didn’t lose a few hundreds dollars. He lots potentially tens of thousands of dollars over the span of a long term vet/client relationship.

Whatever the reasons are - in the end if the client leaves the justification the vet has for price extremes simply isn’t relevant. The client is gone and may not be replaced. Or, that client will voice objections so loudly that purchasing vaccines and meds off the net is supported by the legislature - which will impact a local vet’s bottom line.

The consumer will simply shop elsewhere - and be rather vocal about protecting that right.

I agree that standards and costs and everything else in veterinary medicine has changed - and I agree that there are legitimate arguments in response to consumer complaints. Not all people are reasonable - and sorry but a few people insist that the vet perform miracles and not allow any tests or diagnostics. That must drive vets crazy.

But there is only so much money to go around. I know care is expensive - but even folks like me who are thrilled that great vet care is available for pets - look at some of these prices and think they are truly out of line. Really and truly. I’m not talking about diagnostics - or surgeries, or complex stuff - just basic vaccines and visits.[/QUOTE]

ANd it WAS a fabulous evening for a ride :slight_smile:

THe sun is finally setting, I love these long summer days…

I think we probably agree more than not…

One reason a vet would charge more than another is that they are using the vaccinations as their way to generate income. Another vet may use something else…i.e higher x-rays, higher lameness exam… There is no standard for setting fees, so generally you have to set them for what you need to cover your costs and appropriate income… And vets do take into consideration what the market will bear…you have to or you will lose all your clients…Unless you can make it up another way you are SOL…

[QUOTE=Pancakes;4205528]
Parker_Rider, JSwan, avezan, foggybok: Thanks. I realize that all vets are not created equal, despite the love I have for this profession and what it stands for. I sincerely am sorry for those that have been taken advantage of in some form or another where the only one that suffers in the end is the animal. I know what it’s like to be on the other end of the bill and I will never forget it. Thank you for understanding that I, like other professionals, have to make a living and times are changing, and so are the prices. Foggybok, I will try to have a thicker hide…remember, I’m still green. :slight_smile: I’m sure I’ll learn the hard way…sigh.

Wendy, part of the job of a vet is to eliminate suffering in animals. If a pet has a life-threatening condition and the owner is unable to pay or find someone to pay for the treatment, there is NOTHING wrong with euthanizing the animal if it means a painless death. Euthanasia is a better end than suffering from witholding treatment. And no, it’s not always something you feel good about, and it’s not black and white as to what is and isn’t a case this definitely applies to…but that’s for a different discussion.[/QUOTE]

From all your posts I think you are going to make a very good and compassionate vet. Sometimes it gets really tough out there. You can have mostly great clients and one or two will just get under your skin. Just try to remember you are doing what you think is best and keep all the good clients and the animals that you are really working for in your mind :slight_smile: