Small Horses in Hunters?

[jagarabiansporthorse]

This may be something I need to move more to the sport horse breeding forum, but I think this would be more practical to ask hunter/jumper riders and trainers who are currently showing in the industry. Bare with me as I more of a dressage rider and have very limited experience with rated hunters, but was having this discussion with a few friends and wanted feedback and thoughts.

This is an overwhelming generality, but basically, is it physically possible for a 14.3-15.1hh horse (or as some would considered them, “honies”) to be suitable in the Amateur Owner or Amateur Divisions (3’3", 3’6") at shows? If hunter breeders produced a horse at this height, would riders be able to make them successful in the amateur, junior, medal classes, etc.? Would this size of horse even be considered for a professional division? How often are horses this size capable of a 13-14’+ stride at this size? Would they sacrifice form and pace or are some of these smaller hunters capable of doing these divisions? Or do trainer and riders typically place these sizes in the small hunter or small junior hunter divisions or the unrated pre-childrens, pre-adult, etc. divisions?

As far as jumpers, would these sized horses have a more fair shot (as long as they have the scope, speed, talent, etc.) at being successful and marketed?

At 5’1" I don’t ride anything bigger than 16 1/2hh in the dressage ring and most of my horses are in the 15.1-15.2hh range, but I can see why a larger horse may be more beneficial to make the higher divisions look “effortless” for a horse in a hunter division. Do you think this is the/a main reason the majority of riders and trainers typically lean towards horses 16hh plus? Is there a market for purpose breeding a smaller sized hunter - perhaps for more petite riders - or are they usually just breeding “accidents”? Do you think this may change in the future at all?

I’m curious to see everyone’s opinions!

[PNWjumper]

I have had 15.1h horses with strides bigger than my 17h horses. So yes, absolutely, a small horse can have the step and scope to do the big hunters and/or the big jumpers. It’s just not “the norm.” This is where understanding conformation and evaluating the horse in front of you is important. And I’m sure that people can offer up examples of small hunters who have been wildly successful.

Trying to sell that horse, however, is a whole 'nother story. Everyone who has a small horse to sell seems to believe that their horse uniquely has a giant stride, and more often than not, they don’t - so you get a lot of buyer apprehension about considering a small horse for that reason. A 15h horse with an average 15h-horse-stride, will, in most cases, appear to run down the lines to get the strides. Also, when people think of small heights, they tend to equate it to small body sizes despite the fact that there are many horses out there who have large bodies and are just short. I have a 15.3h mare who is exactly the same size as my 17h TB - she just has dachshund legs :lol:

But all of that aside, the trend has gone toward large horses because MORE large horses have large strides that make those lines happen in a slow lope. And also, you’ve got so many trainers telling students that they need a huge horse to make them look comparatively small. People in the english world have such a weird hangup about appearing “large” on their horse (compared to the western world, at least).

Full disclosure - I’m a bit grumpy about this right now because I’ve had 3 people in a row decide that my 16.2h horse is “too small” to come out and try because of a pair of trainers who keep telling people that they will look “huge” on him. I didn’t realize that the new “small” size was 16.2 :rolleyes:

I answered a few of your questions more directly in blue:

@jagarabiansporthorses

This is an overwhelming generality, but basically, is it physically possible for a 14.3-15.1hh horse (or as some would considered them, “honies”) to be suitable in the Amateur Owner or Amateur Divisions (3’3", 3’6") at shows? Yes, possible, though not usual. If hunter breeders produced a horse at this height, would riders be able to make them successful in the amateur, junior, medal classes, etc.? Suitability can impact hunter scores. But a small horse with a big step and a suitable rider should not see any bias from a judge. Would this size of horse even be considered for a professional division? Same story as the junior/am classes. If the horse is fancy enough and has a big enough step, size shouldn’t matter. Though I would assume that most pros would pick the bigger horse over the smaller horse most of the time. How often are horses this size capable of a 13-14’+ stride at this size? Not often. It’s not just about stride length. It’s also about how slow the horse looks covering the ground, and smaller horses often look quicker, even if they have a big step. Would they sacrifice form and pace or are some of these smaller hunters capable of doing these divisions? Or do trainer and riders typically place these sizes in the small hunter or small junior hunter divisions or the unrated pre-childrens, pre-adult, etc. divisions? I don’t think most trainers/riders select classes based on the horse’s size (other than size-restricted classes - e.g. Small Working Hunter versus Large Working Hunter).

As far as jumpers, would these sized horses have a more fair shot (as long as they have the scope, speed, talent, etc.) at being successful and marketed? I don’t think the arena (hunter versus jumper) matters for the most part. A small horse is just harder to sell. Look at Exchange Hunter/Jumper, Big Eq, or Warmblood-Sales.com, and you’ll find that generally speaking, smaller horses are priced lower than their bigger counterparts. And this is because they’re more of a niche sale.

At 5’1" I don’t ride anything bigger than 16 1/2hh in the dressage ring and most of my horses are in the 15.1-15.2hh range, but I can see why a larger horse may be more beneficial to make the higher divisions look “effortless” for a horse in a hunter division. Do you think this is the/a main reason the majority of riders and trainers typically lean towards horses 16hh plus? Is there a market for purpose breeding a smaller sized hunter - perhaps for more petite riders - or are they usually just breeding “accidents”? Do you think this may change in the future at all? I don’t see it changing any time soon. You hear people saying there’s a whole new market for smaller horses, but it’s kind of like the story that “TBs are making a comeback.” Maybe that’s happening at a lower level, but it’s certainly not the case in the big show world. No matter how you cut it, a large horse is more likely to give the appearance of slowly loping around a 3’6" course effortlessly. Not because that horse is necessarily scopier, but he is more likely to have a 13’ step and actually have to slow down for the lines. Kind of like when a short person walks next to a tall person. Every now and again you meet a short person with a huge step, but usually the tall person will have to slow down to walk next to the short person (unless the short person is like me and “power walks” everywhere :lol: Though in that analogy - I would be the short horse who looks like they’re galloping headlong down the lines!).

I’m curious to see everyone’s opinions!

[jagarabiansporthorse]

@PNWjumper Love your feedback! I definitely understand everything you’re saying. And thanks for some of the explanations - really informative! I love hearing that your previous 15.1-ers had competitive strides. Although I’ve read articles on COH about smaller horses having big wins, I certainly was curious to know how/if other smaller in height horses did have the stride/suitability/look to be competitive. I’m not at A or AA shows to see how many of these horses there are and the hunters in my barn…I don’t think there’s a single one under 16.1 unless they’re a pony (2 ponies) out of 15 animals lol I guess it would be the difference between a division pony versus one not suitable for the division.

I can understand everyone wanting to look elegant on their horse, but I know that even petite riders are pushed for “larger sized” horses. And I completely get the breadth/width of a horse that can fill out a leg even with being shorter height/hand wise. I, personally, would know I would have more “confidence” in a sense on a big horse if the jumps looked smaller from the back of a “large” horse. I think you’re right about a buyer leaning towards looking at large horses - percentage wise, they’re just going to have larger strides by nature and you would have more choices/options as a buyer. But holy cow - 16.2hh…I would look like an ant haha I guess it’s all personal preference?

Just out of curiosity - how often is the small hunter (junior or not) class held? I’m looking at the USEF website National points standing in Hunter section 2004 Small Hunter. I know I see small junior hunter quite often. I think I read small hunter is considered a “C” rated class? I’ve looked at prize lists for rated shows in my area and I don’t even seen small hunter being offered! I will say I’m curious because I have a 15.1 green dressage mare and sometimes I look at her and think wow - she should do hunters!! lol Probably will never happen, but it definitely got me chatting with people.

[MHM]

Off the top of my head, I don’t recall seeing a small hunter division actually take place at a USEF show. Ever. In my life. Maybe they happen somewhere, maybe they’re offered. But I don’t remember seeing one.

Small junior divisions happen all the time, although often with fewer entries than the large junior division. And most of the horses in the small junior division are a lot closer to 16 hands than 15 hands. All junior hunters can show together in one division as long as they are ridden by juniors. The division is split into small and large, and also by the age of the junior rider, if they have enough entries to warrant it.

[equisusan]

@PNWjumper I had a jumper with Dachshund legs. Lol he was 16.2H back when THAT was normal but I swear he had the legs of a 15H horse. IMO people have just become stupid about needing a giant horse. When hunters were allowed to hand gallop, the 15.2 or 15.3H horses had a better chance against the 16H+ especially if they got to the jumps and were brilliant.

As with most equestrian trends I am bucking the giant horse trend. I found out that when I fall off a horse that is 17.2H I hurt myself more. I’m sticking to 16.2H as it’s my sweet spot. At least until I move down to adult leadline.

@jagarabiansporthorses The moral of the story is I wouldn’t go out of my way to breed anything smaller than 16.2H for the hunter ring unless you are targeting short stirrup type divisions or local shows. Sad but true!

Now jumpers - anything goes. Performance and rideability.

[ToTheNines]

I just want to add that I think it’s a shame that the striding distance between lines favors the horse with the perfect stride for that distance. Someone a while back posted a course that the Arabian shows use for their hunter classes because of the wide range in size of the horses. Lots of long bending lines. It flowed just fine. I wish more shows would do that. Singles and long bending lines. A smaller horse could add a stride and look just great.

[soloudinhere]

I have a 15.2 guy who is as petite as they come and has a monster big, slow step. It was unnerving the first time I rode him to be going so “slow” but covering so much ground.

That said he is TB from good running lines so he was bred for it. If he had grown taller he probably would have raced, but he was 14.1 at 2 and they said no way.

Given your username its probably important to say, the stigma against petite horses is probably nothing in comparison to something Arab bred. I am not saying anything about the truth of the stereotype, just that it exists and it’s far more deep set than the stereotype about height or being tb.

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

I’m 5’1 with short legs relative to my torso and I feel that I can use my body more effectively on a horse that’s proportional to my size. I prefer riding “honies” and large ponies. The prejudice against small horses has actually worked in my favor since I’m not interested in showing and I’ve been able to ride some horses that are far nicer than I am worthy of as a rider simply because they are small and no one is interested in them.

Obviously, some tiny riders are so strong and talented they can ride enormous horses with great skill but I have to say, I’ve seen many short amateur riders who are just over-mounted by size alone relative to their strength in the saddle. Including children who are told it’s time to “move up” to a 17h warmblood just way too early before they can even comfortably tack up or handle a horse of that size.

I’d love to see an embrace of smaller horses in all disciplines (I currently ride dressage like the OP and I see the prejudice there as well, sometimes, although there has been a rising interest in dressage ponies). But it seems to be a losing battle right now. I can see where @PNWjumper’s frustrations come from–it seems every time I see a sale ad for a lovely horse that is between 15-16.2 hands, the ad is almost apologizing for the horse’s “small” size.

[jagarabiansporthorse]

haha that’s funny! They do have that national ranking for the small hunter division on the USEF website, but, like you said, haven’t seen the division offered in my area.

I’m not breeding or buying anything for years as I already have 11 horses. And, unfortunately with this market, I wouldn’t be purchasing anything unless it’s VERY to close to 16hh even if I’m under 5’1"…so that may be my goal in 10 years!

I’m not talking stigmas as I’m honestly not worried about that personally at this point in time. I am curious about the practicality of actually exhibiting a “shorter” horse. You would probably look at 99% of my current show horses and you would only say one is Arabian, so not concerned about “breeds” in this particular scenario - just about actual performance ability and competitiveness, which everyone has done a wonderful job of explaining!

I agree with everyone in saying that I don’t see any Warmblood/hunter breeders aiming to produce something smaller than 16 hands because that seriously limits their marketability. My onsite hunter trainer specifically does not look for anything smaller than 16hh when purchasing a horse for her clients and I can see the reasoning behind it, though it makes me feel bad for the smaller horses’ lack of opportunity (if they don’t have the giant, loping stride) and maybe people like me (if I showed on the open rated circuit) that prefer a smaller horse for my size.

Maybe like @ToTheNines said, course style adjustments would open doors. I know my local open hunter finals did this for one of their courses last year: single, bending (honestly can’t remember if it was related or not), related line, single, and related. Not sure if that would help much but it was a little different I thought. I did ride that Arabian course that was a bunch of singles and it was a cool course and actually a lot of fun and did require thinking (especially with me and my nerves). But, I did both of these on a 3/4 Arabian with an easy loping 13’ stride so either way I’m fine. My question along with that though, is in eq or derby courses - aren’t 2 strides or combinations extremely popular? I’m assuming this could become almost dangerous if your horse doesn’t have the big enough stride for the particular division. Maybe someone can explain more about combinations?

To go even further into this conversation, what division would you say allows for a level playing field for a horse with a “shorter” stride that doesn’t have the monster stride that some of you mention for an adult amateur or even a professional on a smaller horse that someone would want campaigned by a professional?

And even further, my goal for my large pony is Pony Finals (his Half Arabian uncle placed 19th in medium greens at Pony Finals in 2014). I don’t plan on selling him and once he’s done his job being leased, he’s coming back to me. Do amateurs ever keep riding their large ponies in rated divisions or is that just laughable/silly? Is there any option for even a large pony to be ridden by an amateur that would be “fair”? I guess with this guy with me riding I wouldn’t consider rated shows buuut again I could make it a hypothetical question since it helps me learn more!

[equisusan]

Combinations would certainly be a challenge for a shorter strided horse. Even if you had courses with mostly unrelated distances as single fences or bending lines without a specified number of steps required… you would be sunk as soon as there was a combination. Paramount to a good hunter is the consistency of the rhythm and if you had to move from a 10 or 11 ft stride to a 12 or 13 ft stride to get through the combinations your rhythm would change. Instead a better idea is to carry the required step for the class all the time: 12’ ish generally for lower jumps and 13’ or a little more for bigger jumps. It means you have to motor around more. To me there is nothing unappealing about that as long as the rhythm is consistent but as long as the warmblood shuffle is “in style” you just won’t pin as high.

The only A division that truly allows for the slightly smaller horse to have a level playing field is the small juniors. There are some derby horses that struggle with step a little but it can bite them in any combinations. Even the jumpers you will find some drawbacks if your horse can’t step up to jump through the triples.

I’ll leave the pony questions to someone else since the last time I rode a pony I was 14 and probably was too tall for it then so I don’t keep up with any related rules. One more thing to consider is that a slab-sided horse rides much smaller than one with a big barrel. I have a 16.2H Dutch mare who takes up my leg and thankfully has a bigger butt than me whereas my 17.2H TB who belongs to my friend now rode like a much smaller horse. Slab-sided is the way if you are a smaller human.

[soloudinhere]

My guy (15.2, super petite) can easily make the step for the Sm Juniors and I often have to shorten him up for the lows and AAs here on the local circuits. He won’t look like he’s absolutely CRAWLING around 3’6" like some of the horses out there, but he realistically wouldn’t be competitive at Devon, Indoors etc no matter what. Locally, though, he can do it easily.

I have seen people exhibit large ponies in the lower divisions like the lows, 2’6" and 2’9" AAs/Ch/Ad hunter classes. Suitability does count, so being too tall is a problem for most people. I’m 5’1" and I had a large I looked totally normal on who I would have kept showing in the lower classes no problem. I can’t say I can picture a large pony jumping the 3’3-3’6" AOs competitively since they’re not height (of horse) divided like the JRs are.

[hairystockings]

I definitely prefer honies and large ponies. I’m a 5’2 adult amateur and my leg just disappears on horses of any size (it’s actually really weird. I don’t look THAT short on the ground and then I get on a 16.2 hand horse and it’s like wtf where did your leg go? Must be the chunky thighs I have). My max height for something I would buy for myself is around 16h. I currently have a top of the (we haven’t sticked him, he’s probably right on that 14.2 measurement) line large pony that I use as a 3’ jumper (he could do at least the 1m also but I work full time and can’t stay fit for that, mentally or physically, we’re happy and have fun at 3’). He’s also half arab half dutch wb so I’m pretty screwed on resale but it doesn’t stop me from zipping around and occasionally beating all the children on their expensive giant warmbloods! He gets down the lines in the step no problem, no issue with the in and outs. We just carry our gallop and off we go. What’s nice is I can turn on a dime and add a stride in a pinch if I have to. The adjustability he has is a huge benefit to me at the level we compete at. If he’d carry that gallop without his head being straight up in the air I would consider doing the eq on him too, but he’s much to arab-y and jumper-y for that. And he jumps like he’s on springs, not a good look.

One day I’d like to also buy a horse for the 3’ eq and hunters and I would target a honie specifically for that. As long as it has the step I don’t care if it’s small. There’s been some little 15-15.2h horses in the international derbies that have done well also. If it’s the right horse for the job I don’t think size matters much.

[vxf111]

@MHM

Off the top of my head, I don’t recall seeing a small hunter division actually take place at a USEF show. Ever. In my life. Maybe they happen somewhere, maybe they’re offered. But I don’t remember seeing one…

When they passed the rule, I thought this was a great idea. But it seems to have completely and totally failed to take off in my area. Those horses just go in the pre-adults/childrens or adults/childrens instead.

[BAC]

MHM, back in the 60s (you are probably too young to remember) I used to see horse show results and year end awards in COTH, of small hunter divisions in VA. They were not juniors, just small hunters. I didn’t live in VA though, so I never actually saw them either.

[McGurk]

Back in the day, the division for the 14.3 - 15.2 horses was the Children’s Hunter. That was when children moved off of ponies earlier, and the Children’s Hunter division was a stepping stone to the Junior Hunters and the Big Eq.

I’m not entirely sure why that division has faded so; but it may also have to do with the move to warmbloods that can “walk the lines” and the rise of pony eq and kids staying on ponies longer.

It would truly have to be an exceptional horse at 15.1 to pin in the AO and AAs. They can have a good show career in the unrated divisions; but they’re just not going to be competing on a level playing field in the AO and AA.

I think a horse at that height that was quick and catty and had a big step could also have a great career in junior and amateur jumpers; sometimes you see the big horses struggling with the tight turns and tiny riders having trouble packaging a huge horse around a tricky course. Probably not going to make it to Grand Prix unless it’s the second incarnation of Touch of Class, but could have a very useful career in the Junior and Ammy classes.

[blondewithchrome]

@jagarabiansporthorses

Do amateurs ever keep riding their large ponies in rated divisions or is that just laughable/silly? Is there any option for even a large pony to be ridden by an amateur that would be “fair”? I guess with this guy with me riding I wouldn’t consider rated shows buuut again I could make it a hypothetical question since it helps me learn more!

There is a recent USEF change that prohibits adults from showing ponies in any division where a child will also be showing the pony at the same show. As far as “rated” divisions go, there’s little to no overlap with juniors in rated divisions, and most rated divisions are for true horses, not ponies. Adults can ride ponies in the AA hunters, but there’s no overlap with juniors there.

As, for “Small Hunter,” we have it at some shows in Zone 3. I showed in it 12 or 13 years ago with my TB mare once or twice, and I’ve seen it fill a few times in the past year or two. Typically only 4 or 5 entries. There were only 3 in Raleigh last week, but it ran.

[MHM]

@BAC

MHM, back in the 60s (you are probably too young to remember) I used to see horse show results and year end awards in COTH, of small hunter divisions in VA. They were not juniors, just small hunters. I didn’t live in VA though, so I never actually saw them either.

As vxf111 and McGurk said, I think the big difference is that with the proliferation of other divisions, now those small horses have many other options. Between low hunters, schooling hunters, and various pre-whatever hunters, the small division seems to have fallen by the wayside in many places. Plus with the trend towards the bigger warmbloods in the last few decades, the smaller horses have probably become less common than they used to be at recognized shows.

They’re still out there, but show managers usually offer the divisions that will fill at their shows. So if there isn’t enough interest, the divisions don’t run in many places.

[PNWjumper]

Odd that they don’t run in many other places. The Small Working Hunters run here (NW) - never a huge class, but still a handful of horses at most of the shows.

MHM - do the Large Working Hunters still run where you are?

[MHM]

@PNWjumper

Odd that they don’t run in many other places. The Small Working Hunters run here (NW) - never a huge class, but still a handful of horses at most of the shows.

MHM - do the Large Working Hunters still run where you are?

I’ve never seen a division called Large Working Hunters on the East Coast. Is that a thing? We have Small Juniors and Large Juniors aplenty, but not plain Large Working Hunters, as far as I know. Those horses would just show in whatever division suits them.

[vxf111]

I have never seen that division (Large Working Hunters) either?