So I have tried to breed my mare to a certain stallion for a while. Last year semen came 30% progressive mobility she took but with twins. Vet was concerned about mobility as it was fresh cooled, but mare absorbed after pinching. On re-bred vet called concerned as we had 10% progressive mobility…mare did not take.
This year after lots of care with mare and she is ready and will ovulate sometime tonight, my vet (new one with no history on stallion owner) calls me and says semen received today has 0% mobility. Nothing is moving at all. Not even a little bit. 3 different vets validated semen as they were concerned it was 0% mobility. Box is fine, still cold, nothing suggests anything happened during shipment. Vet has called Stallion owner, but no reply yet.
What would you do?:no:
Do you have any other semen that you can get quick–as in tonight (so frozen in the tank)? I’d try a different stallion this year at this point…and then think if you want to try the stallion again next year. But 0% mobility…
If you don’t have semen available from another stallion ask the SO to send you the next batch free. No collection or shipping charges. I don’t know if they’ll do it but they might.
Also, I’d probably just put the semen in her anyway. Stranger things have happened and you might get lucky. It only takes one!
If I had access to any other stallion that I could get semen from quickly, (that would compliment my mare of course) I would be on the phone tonight to get semen pronto (sounds like they need to breed today or tomorrow though in which case it would have to be someone local to you). Most SO will work with you in weird situations in terms of payment etc.
As for this particualr stallion and trying again… is he older perhaps? That might explain the motility. I am not “as” worried about the 30% but it sounds like he is decreasing as the season goes by - sometimes age and heat plays into a stud’s potency.
Talk to the SO about swaping the breeding to another stallion or refund or if they can limit collections or double check the motility at time of collection (another thing that can play into motility is the extender, the collection process and so forth)…
So frustrating (been there done it). Good luck!
ETA - I agree with Chris about the next collection/shipment etc should be on the house…
While motility is definitely a concern, it’s just one part of equation. Motility plus overall sperm numbers are what you need to get that final important number - TOTAL progressively motile sperm. You want that number to be at least over 100 million (preferably higher). 500 million PMS is the upper end of what should be in a shipping dose. Research shows that having MORE than 500 million won’t increase your pregnancy rates and those pregnancy rates don’t drop significantly until you get below about 100 million PMS. Obviously, we are happier having more, but truthfully? We rarely see semen that comes in at 24 hours post collection much above 30 to 40% and that’s coming from top repro facilities.
This year after lots of care with mare and she is ready and will ovulate sometime tonight, my vet (new one with no history on stallion owner) calls me and says semen received today has 0% mobility. Nothing is moving at all. Not even a little bit. 3 different vets validated semen as they were concerned it was 0% mobility. Box is fine, still cold, nothing suggests anything happened during shipment. Vet has called Stallion owner, but no reply yet.
What would you do?:no:
Uh oh…Obviously with 0% motility, you don’t have that 100 million threshold. Any chance of getting another collection shipped counter to counter? And, as others have noted, what about an alternate hitter? One thing we do try to encourage mare owners to do is ask questions about the stallion’s semen and how he ships. Not necessarily just from the stallion owner, either. There are some top stallions out there that are standing at facilities that have their reputation on the line if they shipped substandard shipments. There is a reason that you see certain facilities and stallions receiving kudos for their customer service! Doesn’t matter how perfect a particular stallion is, if you can’t get good quality semen, you’re dead in the water.
Is there a reason that the stallion is having difficulties shipping this year? We recognize that sometimes things happen that make it impossible to ship. Anyone with stallions knows and appreciates just how fickle they can be sometimes - heat, time of year, show schedules, timing, injuries, or just plain not feeling like it can ALL come into play when one is trying to collect and ship. Unfortunately they are not a machine. But I also appreciate just how frustrating it can be for a mare owner. Please feel free to contact us if there is anything we can do to help…And best wishes for a successful outcome for you!
If you need semen shipped immediately- I second Edgar (Rainbow Equus Meadows). He will ship counter to counter and collect at any time; also, he has a fabulous line up of stallions. Every mare I have used with one of his stallions has gotten pregnant first cycle- his semen is EXCELLENT.
PS- I feel you pain. Collected three times last year and twice this year with a particular stallion, and the semen was less than mediocre (to put it nicely). It’s not worth the collection/shipping costs to deal with sup-par semen.
Third vote for Edgar! I’ve never gone wrong using his fresh semen and love his stallions. My Rubignon filly this year is beautiful, easygoing, friendly and perfect. When I need the semen, it is always here on time in VA with excellent motility. The one time that we missed, my fault, he let me defer trying again for a year.
Also, last week I needed Dacia Peters-Imperato’s FOR PLAY semen overnight and it was at my home by 9 AM the next morning, just as Edgar’s shipments have been.
Can you ask the stallion owner what the numbers were when it was packaged up?
My boys are collected at UC Davis, and they always look at it, and keep a small sample.
I don’t think it would be unreasonable for the SO to give you a free shipment, I had one time where my stallion was collected and it looked great on my end, and for whatever reason, when they got it it was just okay… very odd because he normally ships REALLY well, but it was dang hot and maybe something happened in shipping. Who knows. I offered a free shipment if the mare didn’t get in foal, but she did anyways
Honestly though, I wouldn’t bother with the stallion again. Your losing money with the vet, etc… Edgar is fantastic, and I’m sure there are plenty of other stallion owners that would be thrilled to help you out in a pinch.
Well, for this time I would put whatever you have in the mare. If your vet is able, try deep horn insemination.
As ER once said, if you don’t put the semen in you can guarantee you will not have a conception!
Have the vet pull out all the stops for post ovulation care, including using oxy etc.
Then have one of your vet’s call the SO and tell them about the poor quality of the semen and ask that next time they collect & ship on their dime. Also, if they were using a disposable shipper, insist they use an Equitainer.
I know there are lots of people on this board who will bust me for advising this, but I can personally think of 2 cases just in my little world where the semen had 0% motility and still got the mare pregnant.
One of the cases was my stallion. Hhe was never a great shipper, and usually was around 30-60%. But in this case he shipped VERY high at 80%. However when they checked it on arrival it was DOA.
Luckily the MO was a friend and they put it in the mare anyway. Of course, I was mortified! I paid to have her vet’s equitainer shipped to me so we could use it the next cycle, and told her the next collection was free. But there was no need, as the mare turned up pregnant!
The other case was a very well-known breeder using frozen from a top stallion. She was so disgusted with the quality of the semen (it looked dead, dead, DEAD) she only inseminated one time with it, and when her mare still hadn’t ovulated the next day, she used fresh from her stallion.
The mare conceived and naturally the breeder figured it was her stallion. They actually didn’t get it figured out till the DNA tests came back! So not only had that “dead” semen done the job, it had done it being put in the mare some 18hrs PRIOR to ovulation!
Remember, motility is NOT indicative of fertility. Had pretty much nothing to do with it. It just happens to be the only way we have of measuring semen “quality.” Also, getting the semen up the oviduct is not all the stallion. The mare also “helps” by having peristalsic (forgive the spelling) waves of movement within the oviduct (this info is per my vet; I’m sure ER will correct whatever misinformation I’ve posted ;)).
Obviously this is not ideal, and it’s time for your vet to have an honest discussion w/the SO’s vet about what is “norm” for her boy and tweaking something in their protocol, or you need to switch stallions.
But for now, this minute, your best chance is using what you have on hand (imho).
You’re preaching to the choir here, Kathy – but HOW?
With the exception of yourself, I have never had a SO give me anything but glowing reports on their stallion’s success in the fertility dept.
Oh – and Hilltop – I remember years ago when they had one of their older boys still standing, they even stated in his ad that he wasn’t shipping well anymore and if you wanted to breed to him, it had to be on-site AI.
But otherwise? In my own experience when speaking with SO’s, every stallion in this country has a 100% conception rate and gets the mares pregnant just when you show the girls his swimmers.
And I guess you can’t blame them – I mean, if a SO told you, “Well, Blaze only gets it right 50% of the time” or whatever, would you still book to him? I probably wouldn’t…
If you try to inquire via a public forum like this, you either get busted for “trashing” a stallion OR you might get mis-information by a MO who has an axe to grind. So you can’t win.
However, with collections running $150 – $400, that cost is truly a VERY vital consideration.
Example: I once bred to a stallion collected at Rood & Riddle and it was $350 per collection (NOT including shipping)! Luckily the mare caught 1st time, but if it had taken 3x it would have almost DOUBLED the cost of the stud fee!
So how DO you get accurate info on this?
PS: Kathy, is my vet correct about the parastalsis within the oviduct? I’ve never heard it mentioned on this board.
:lol::lol::lol: Sorry, this made me laugh, because I think you meant Edgar’s stallions have excellent semen, but that is not how it read.:lol::lol:
OP - I second that I have always gotten 1 cycle/1 pregnancy with Edgar’s stallions (Pablo/Pablito/Escudo II), Hilltop farm (Royal Prince x2), Bridlewood (Fabuleux x2), CrookedCreek/Woodhaven (Wolkentanz II x2), and Dreamscape (Sir Gregory x2). So those are some options if you decide to switch quickly.
[QUOTE=Edgewood;5693039]
:lol::lol::lol: Sorry, this made me laugh, because I think you meant Edgar’s stallions have excellent semen, but that is not how it read.:lol::lol:
OP - I second that I have always gotten 1 cycle/1 pregnancy with Edgar’s stallions (Pablo/Pablito/Escudo II), Hilltop farm (Royal Prince x2), Bridlewood (Fabuleux x2), CrookedCreek/Woodhaven (Wolkentanz II x2), and Dreamscape (Sir Gregory x2). So those are some options if you decide to switch quickly.[/QUOTE]
Yes, I have bred to Hilltop stallions 11 times (6 different stallions) and have always gotten a pregnancy with one insemination! Also, they are so honest have excellent customer service. I bred to Mannhattan in 2008 and it was the same story with Kathy–she was also awesome to deal with. I think we inseminated my mare way early, and still got a pregnancy. My vet has always been very, very impressed with the quality of the semen from every stallion I have used from both SO’s.
I was just thinking about how much I appreciate SO’s like Hilltop and Kathy when I was reading through this.
[QUOTE=Equine Reproduction;5692554]
One thing we do try to encourage mare owners to do is ask questions about the stallion’s semen and how he ships. Not necessarily just from the stallion owner, either. There are some top stallions out there that are standing at facilities that have their reputation on the line if they shipped substandard shipments. There is a reason that you see certain facilities and stallions receiving kudos for their customer service! Doesn’t matter how perfect a particular stallion is, if you can’t get good quality semen, you’re dead in the water.
Is there a reason that the stallion is having difficulties shipping this year? We recognize that sometimes things happen that make it impossible to ship. Anyone with stallions knows and appreciates just how fickle they can be sometimes - heat, time of year, show schedules, timing, injuries, or just plain not feeling like it can ALL come into play when one is trying to collect and ship. Unfortunately they are not a machine. But I also appreciate just how frustrating it can be for a mare owner. Please feel free to contact us if there is anything we can do to help…And best wishes for a successful outcome for you![/QUOTE]
FWIW, if this is the stallion I suspect you are talking about (again reading between the lines on the BB), I also inquired about him this year for a late breeding that I wanted to only try the mare once…SO told me up front that this stallion ships poorly and semen always looks terrible when it arrives. SO also said the pregnancy rate isn’t terrible for this stallion even though his semen looks aweful. I decided it wasn’t worth the risk.
Good luck with whatever you decided to do!
By asking on Bulletin Boards such as this one for people to PM you about specific stallions. Or, you can ask about the offspring of particular stallions and then contact those individuals that respond privately and ask what the semen quality was like. By doing that, you can pick from those that respond and be a bit more sure of getting an accurate response. There will always be a few individuals that aren’t happy about something, so you have to sometimes take responses with a grain of salt, as well <smile>. And, as I also noted, there are times that, for whatever reason, the stallion doesn’t ship or collect well.
But otherwise? In my own experience when speaking with SO’s, every stallion in this country has a 100% conception rate and gets the mares pregnant just when you show the girls his swimmers.
<grin>…and that should always make one suspicious. If they are breeding ANY kind of numbers, 100% just isn’t going to happen! I still remember many years ago when we received semen from a particular stallion that was horrible - similar to the motility the OP posted. It had been extended 1 part semen to 2 parts extender and was SUPER concentrated. Looked AWFUL. Stallion was an older stallion and I have no doubt if it had been extended appropriately, it would have been just fine. When I contacted the stallion owner about the semen, the owner literally had a meltdown on me. Told me that the horse had 100% conception rate, their vet was a phenomenal repro vet and knew what he was doing and that obviously, I had no clue of what I was doing. Mare didn’t settle, stallion owner refused to send a second shipment, and refused to refund the mare owner’s money :O!!! The mare owner was a really, really kind individual and I felt horrible for her. Additionally, I always assume that my goal and the stallion owner’s goal is the same one - get the mare pregnant! So, when I call because I’ve gotten a bad collection, I don’t rant and rave - but truly want to discuss options to try and improve things! The conversation never got beyond - “Hi, I’m calling about the shipment we just received on your stallion…we’ve got a little bit of a problem. I have less than 1% motility”. But, I also know that particular mare owner was quite vocal and would contact mare owners that were looking at that particular stallion to breed to. It wasn’t even that the stallion had horrible semen! I have NO doubt he would have been fine if he had been managed appropriately, but holy smokes…the response
And I guess you can’t blame them – I mean, if a SO told you, “Well, Blaze only gets it right 50% of the time” or whatever, would you still book to him? I probably wouldn’t…
Mm…but realistically, 50% first cycle conception, while a bit low, isn’t unreasonable! Especially when one considers the variety of skill levels of the inseminators/technicians/vets doing the work. If I had to put a number to it, I would guess that with all the stallions we manage for transported semen (remember, that this is a variety of breeds and variety of ages - Quarter Horses, Gypsy Vanners, Apps, Paints, as well as our own) I would have to say the average first cycle conception rate is around 75-80% . And there are certainly individuals that we manage that have to be managed carefully. Which comes back to that issue of making sure that if the motility isn’t the greatest that the number of sperm in the dose are sufficient to have that threshold of progressively motile sperm available. And we send out paperwork with the insemination so that the people on the receiving end can do the math and see if they have adequate numbers.
If you try to inquire via a public forum like this, you either get busted for “trashing” a stallion OR you might get mis-information by a MO who has an axe to grind. So you can’t win.
I think the problem is that there are some individuals on public forums that thrive on controversy and drama. Indeed there was problems with a stallion owner on these forums that was deliberating trashing other stallions by posting under alters (the moderators did step in and weed through some of the post, but to a large degree, the damage was done ). Unfortunately, people tend to remember the bad things that are stated on public forums and not necessarily the good. But you are exactly right! It’s tough sometimes to get an accurate and factual representation.
However, with collections running $150 – $400, that cost is truly a VERY vital consideration.
Yes…very much so! But, also who is doing the collections matters as well. Edgar gets lots of kudos here for what he ships out, but there’s a reason for that ;). We (Edgar and I) had a “conversation” earlier this spring about my wanting a 100% conception rate on the mares I was managing. I figure part of “our” job is to minimize spending the mare owner’s money. We had two mares in for one mare owner that both were going to one of Edgar’s stallions. I short cycled them together with one mare going slightly faster than the other mare. I ordered one shipment of semen, didn’t give the first mare any hCG, Deslorelin, etc until I had the semen., and gave the other mare Deslorelin when I ordered…I used the one shipment and one insemination each on both mares - both were pregnant :D. I had an Arab mare we were managing at the same time that we got TERRIBLE semen on <7% PMS that I had to put both doses into - I couldn’t have done the same thing if I had had two mares to breed.
Who do you see on these boards that are repeatedly mentioned as being good to work with? There is a reason for that! Customer service is VITAL. It’s the new stallion owners or the ones that aren’t getting larger numbers of breedings that it can sometimes be tough finding out how things are going. If they are taking the stallion to a facility that is KNOW for managing stallions well, you are probably going to have a better chance of getting good quality and learn to ask the right questions when looking at breeding - Do they do a sperm count on every ejaculate? Do they do a semen evaluation at the beginning of breeding season to determine which extender works best for their stallion? Do they send paperwork with their shipments so that you know what exactly they have sent (it’s tough to do that if they’re not doing a sperm count and evaluation )? Can they ship counter to counter if necessary? Getting known shipper status isn’t that difficult - at least with some airlines - and for you stallion owners that are reading this - “do” check out Southwest Airlines - http://www.swacargo.com/swacargo/home.htm?src=BANREQUCARG000001100128 !! I kid you not, they were by far the easiest we’ve ever dealt with for getting known shipper status so no reason not to be able to offer that service!
Example: I once bred to a stallion collected at Rood & Riddle and it was $350 per collection (NOT including shipping)! Luckily the mare caught 1st time, but if it had taken 3x it would have almost DOUBLED the cost of the stud fee!
But I’m guessing the semen you received probably looked pretty good <smile>. Rood and Riddle have a reputation to uphold as well and I suspect they know what they’re doing :D.
So how DO you get accurate info on this?
Going with reputable stallion owners definitely helps. Make sure you have a good breeding contract. If you do your research and ask for information be sent to you privately on bulletin boards, you can get a good indication. Yeah, you may get a couple of people that have bones to pick, but hopefully you can weed through it. Obviously if there is a disproportionate number of individuals that are having difficulties there is probably legitimately a problem, no? The thread on here about the mare owner not getting semen and breeding certificates from a particular stallion owner is a prime example! Even though they are not naming names, those that have been involved with the stallion owner have probably already guessed who it is. That “does” say something, no?
PS: Kathy, is my vet correct about the parastalsis within the oviduct? I’ve never heard it mentioned on this board.
Yes…the mare does assist in “directing” the swimmers - they’re not the best at asking directions ;). Uterine contractions will actually assist in moving sperm up through the oviducts. BUT, you still must have viable sperm to get the job done.
[QUOTE=NorthHillFarm;5693115]
FWIW, if this is the stallion I suspect you are talking about (again reading between the lines on the BB), I also inquired about him this year for a late breeding that I wanted to only try the mare once…SO told me up front that this stallion ships poorly and semen always looks terrible when it arrives. SO also said the pregnancy rate isn’t terrible for this stallion even though his semen looks aweful. I decided it wasn’t worth the risk.
Good luck with whatever you decided to do![/QUOTE]
Just to clarify…I truly don’t know who the stallion is that is being discussed by the OP ;). But points to the SO in letting mare owners know that the semen isn’t the best. That does count! It allows mare owners to make an informed decision!
Thank you all for your replies. My vet timed everything just right and of course the mare ovulated last night.
She’s going to stay and we are going to short cycle her and then I’ll use my dose of Willemoes I have.
I appreciate all the positive comments about Edgars stallions and will look at him for next year for sure.
It can be difficult for mare owners out there and I know that things can happen. I just wish more information was available. As Mare owners we really need good information to make decisions as the cost of AI breeding isn’t getting any less expensive.
Kathy: thanks for all your information. It is really helpful and I love reading all the details.
Kyzteke - in response to your question, you can ask for a semen report. When I get my boys collected, the stallion station always gives me a semen report - I hang on to a few of those each year so if a MO wants to know about semen quality, I can email a scanned copy to them. That way, at least you get some real numbers, versus “oh, of course he has GUREAT semen”… It isn’t a guarantee, but it is something.
)? Can they ship counter to counter if necessary? Getting known shipper status isn’t that difficult - at least with some airlines - and for you stallion owners that are reading this - “do” check out Southwest Airlines - 