So how do liniments work?

[Scribbler]

http://www.jacksmfg.com/McTarnahans-…6-oz,2314.html

This is a spin-off from the ice boots thread where it turned out the newest medical opinion was turning against icing in sports medicine

How do liniments work? I rarely bother with them but after saying as much on a recent thread somewhere on COTH, I thought why not? And got out my jug of Mctarnahans Blue Lotoion, your basic tingly menthol camphor thing in the same family as most other liniments.

And it makes my hands feel great! I don’t know if it actually helps mobility or arthritis, but the hand feels better even after the tingle is gone. Horse did not say either way how her legs felt.

So how does a counter irritant work? I’m assuming it increases surface blood flow so makes things feel looser and warmer?

Is this something you want for lower legs (on horses)?

And what does it do, ease soreness? I have used it with some apparent success on my own back muscle pain that responds also to heat.

Or is there emerging evidence that liniments are actually a bad idea?

[Amy3996]

I use Vetrolin or Absorbine gel liniment on my gelding’s lower legs after every jump school or show. Those liniments have a mild analgesic effect, and they do stimulate circulation. I’ve found it seems to help him avoid stiffness and stay more comfortable. If it’s been an especially difficult ride or he seems body sore, I might dilute the vetrolin liquid in a bucket of cool water and use it as a brace, and leave it on to dry. It’s kind of the equine equivalent of a human using Icy Hot to soothe minor muscle aches. I’m paranoid, though, and I never wrap legs over liniment because I’m afraid it’ll blister the skin.

Assuming you don’t overdo it and apply a ton of liniment, I’ve never had any problem with skin irritation otherwise. I don’t think there’s any evidence that it necessarily causes harm (unless a horse has an allergy to an ingredient in the liniment or something like that), but it may not actually be as effective as we think/hope it is.

[Lusoluv]

Just remember…liniments feel good to us on our muscles. Much of it is placebo effect, the action of massaging the liniment into sore muscles and/or a distraction from pain. Horse’s lower legs have essentially no muscle, just tendons, ligaments, etc. Walking or turning a horse out after a tough workout would be much more beneficial than applying topical lotions, oils, etc.

[Palm_Beach]

@Lusoluv

Just remember…liniments feel good to us on our muscles. Much of it is placebo effect, the action of massaging the liniment into sore muscles and/or a distraction from pain. Horse’s lower legs have essentially no muscle, just tendons, ligaments, etc. Walking or turning a horse out after a tough workout would be much more beneficial than applying topical lotions, oils, etc.

Great post. For the horses that must stand in stalls, the two most effective things to do them up in are poultice and a sweat. The bandage is actually more important than what is underneath for preventing swelling.

[Bluey]

Using liniments may also help with any that could possibly cause skin infections, some by the extra cleaning action, other because what is in liniments is mildly antiseptic.

Training race horses, you may get ringworm from an excercise boy’s boot as he moves from stable to stable.
Some think that using liniment after a bath, even highly diluted, may help keep that possible contamination down.

[NancyM]

Many years ago as a race groom, I was instructed by the trainer to use liniment on a horse with a chip in it’s knee. Another trainer (a gruff old fart with decades of racetrack life behind him) spoke to me about this , and said “You might as well piss on it”. Made me laugh. After I quit working for that trainer, I haven’t used liniment again, on just about any horse for just about any reason. The second trainer’s words still echo in my head. And I agree.

If the horse has injured itself in exercise or competition, it may be very slight at first. To try to minimize this very slight warning, to “make it look better than it is”, is counterproductive to the horse’s long term best interest. If a horse has injured itself very slightly, I WANT to SEE it when I check his legs the next day. I don’t want to fool myself into thinking that things are “fine” when in fact they are not fine. If I proceed with further training or further competition, what WAS slight may well get worse, before I even know it is there, if I blindfold myself.

If the horse has injured itself and I have discovered the damage, ice is good for the first treatment. Bandaging will keep things clean, help to keep swelling to a minimum, and keep dressings in place. But it doesn’t make it better, to make it LOOK better. Only time can heal. Time, and exercise (movement) while healing. If any old injury is only filling on a stall kept horse, liniment and bandages can make that not happen, again, make it look better. If that is your goal, it will work. But if there is any newer damage, it will still be hidden if you apply this treatment.

Putting liniment on the legs does not make it less likely that the horse will injure itself in the future. Only fitness and good riding and training (and good luck) will do that for you.

[ammyforlife]

Another thing to consider is some horses react to liniment, especially if it is being wrapped over. My TB was like this. I could only wrap over SNM regular strength liniment if it was rubbed until dry, and any other kind I tried would irritate his legs, that being said, I only ever tried a few kinds. I also only ever used one kind of poultice on this horse, because it worked for him and he didn’t react to it. I found that most liniment caused more issues than it solved on him, that being said, most horses aren’t as sensitive as my TB was.

[Scribbler]

@NancyM

Many years ago as a race groom, I was instructed by the trainer to use liniment on a horse with a chip in it’s knee. Another trainer (a gruff old fart with decades of racetrack life behind him) spoke to me about this , and said “You might as well piss on it”. Made me laugh. After I quit working for that trainer, I haven’t used liniment again, on just about any horse for just about any reason. The second trainer’s words still echo in my head. And I agree.

If the horse has injured itself in exercise or competition, it may be very slight at first. To try to minimize this very slight warning, to “make it look better than it is”, is counterproductive to the horse’s long term best interest. If a horse has injured itself very slightly, I WANT to SEE it when I check his legs the next day. I don’t want to fool myself into thinking that things are “fine” when in fact they are not fine. If I proceed with further training or further competition, what WAS slight may well get worse, before I even know it is there, if I blindfold myself.

If the horse has injured itself and I have discovered the damage, ice is good for the first treatment. Bandaging will keep things clean, help to keep swelling to a minimum, and keep dressings in place. But it doesn’t make it better, to make it LOOK better. Only time can heal. Time, and exercise (movement) while healing. If any old injury is only filling on a stall kept horse, liniment and bandages can make that not happen, again, make it look better. If that is your goal, it will work. But if there is any newer damage, it will still be hidden if you apply this treatment.

Putting liniment on the legs does not make it less likely that the horse will injure itself in the future. Only fitness and good riding and training (and good luck) will do that for you.

Yes this has been my working assumption as well.

My hands still feel great today. But I did a little Googling and found out that the first ingredient in McTarnahans blue lotion is methyl salicate, which is a plant derived substance that’s chemically related to aspirin and shares analgesic effects.

So really I just gave my hands a big dose of topical painkiller along with the tingly menthol counter irritant.

That makes more medical sense to me but it’s not what you hope a liniment is doing when it is tightening, bracing, conditioning, all those great things on the bottle.

From my googling it doesn’t seem like liniments have a huge following in mainstream human sports medicine any more, except perhaps in the martial arts.

[raisethebar]

@Scribbler interesting! Is this something that would test per USEF?

[Scribbler]

@raisethebar

@Scribbler interesting! Is this something that would test per USEF?

I have no idea. If it’s on their list of banned substances, I wouldn’t mess with it.

[jawa]

I have used liniments on myself when I’ve had a crick in my neck. Not much in the way of “massage” going on, just a quick apply and wait. These are situations where I have already tried the Advil first and it JUST DID NOT HELP. But as shortly after the application of the liniment, I was feeling like I could move my head in a normal fashion. Just my anecdotal experience. For what it’s worth, I haven’t found it to make my hands feel less sore.

[TWH_Girl]

@Scribbler

Yes this has been my working assumption as well.

My hands still feel great today. But I did a little Googling and found out that the first ingredient in McTarnahans blue lotion is methyl salicate, which is a plant derived substance that’s chemically related to aspirin and shares analgesic effects.

So really I just gave my hands a big dose of topical painkiller along with the tingly menthol counter irritant.

That makes more medical sense to me but it’s not what you hope a liniment is doing when it is tightening, bracing, conditioning, all those great things on the bottle.

From my googling it doesn’t seem like liniments have a huge following in mainstream human sports medicine any more, except perhaps in the martial arts.

Except at the chiro office where there are shelves of BioFreeze!

[Scribbler]

The McTarnahans Blue lotion works on my own back muscle spasms and is much cheaper than tiger balm. My back responds to anything that interupts the pain and spasm cycle including heat, tingly lotions and muscle relaxant drugs, which I dislike.

[ammyforlife]

@raisethebar

@Scribbler interesting! Is this something that would test per USEF?

As per Equestrian Canada rules, you can only have one NSAID in a horses system. So, if you give your horse bute, you can’t use blue lotion because of the methyl salivate which is also a NSAID. You can use one or the other, but not both together. I’m not sure if this is also true with the USEF or FEI.

[Scribbler]

@ammyforlife

As per Equestrian Canada rules, you can only have one NSAID in a horses system. So, if you give your horse bute, you can’t use blue lotion because of the methyl salivate which is also a NSAID. You can use one or the other, but not both together. I’m not sure if this is also true with the USEF or FEI.

So a good idea to check the ingredients of the liniment!

[Palm_Beach]

@NancyM

Many years ago as a race groom, I was instructed by the trainer to use liniment on a horse with a chip in it’s knee. Another trainer (a gruff old fart with decades of racetrack life behind him) spoke to me about this , and said “You might as well piss on it”. Made me laugh. After I quit working for that trainer, I haven’t used liniment again, on just about any horse for just about any reason. The second trainer’s words still echo in my head. And I agree.

If the horse has injured itself in exercise or competition, it may be very slight at first. To try to minimize this very slight warning, to “make it look better than it is”, is counterproductive to the horse’s long term best interest. If a horse has injured itself very slightly, I WANT to SEE it when I check his legs the next day. I don’t want to fool myself into thinking that things are “fine” when in fact they are not fine. If I proceed with further training or further competition, what WAS slight may well get worse, before I even know it is there, if I blindfold myself.

“You might as well piss on it” means that the liniment does absolutely nothing for the horse.

The bandaging is what keeps inflammation down, depending on what is going on. Horses stock up without having sustained an injury just from being stall kept. It means nothing. If a horse has an injury, you will see it and feel it despite bandages. If it’s very minor, I pretty much guarantee you that the vet will want the horse to keep training on a daily basis. Progressive loading, which is what is needed to strengthen both the hard and soft tissues, always results in some tissue damage, and you absolutely need this for the tissue to be rebuilt. If you stop training or don’t do enough fast/hard work, you will just spin wheels and not make any progress. If you are conditioning the horse correctly, you will have some soreness and inflammation. The art is moving the horse forward through progressive loading so that the horse becomes physically stronger and stronger without sustaining an injury that necessitates an interruption in training.

Inflammation absolutely needs to be noted and monitored, but the horse can have some inflammation and still be just fine to continue on training.