Thanks Linny.
He also ticks one of my personal boxes, which is all three of the foundation stallions on the first page + the sire of the mares in the fifth. Irish Star is by Klarion (Herod) and there is plenty of Matchem as I already pointed out.
Go see him, and if he’s as nice as he appears, both in photo and on paper, go for it. Anytime you find a horse with On-And-On it’s worth further investigation as a sport horse.
Thanks again Viney. I’m truly a rube when it come to TB pedigree analysis. While I’m sure it is clear to most everyone else, what exactly do you mean when you say “all three of the foundation stallions on the first page + the sire of the mares in the fifth.” Can you translate into “TB Pedigree Analysis for Dummies?”
This is just a personal fetish. There were only 3 stallions that survived into the modern age as sire lines–Matchem (Godolphin Arabian), Herod (Byerley Turk), and Eclipse (Darley Arabian). Over the centuries, Herod has become virtually extinct as a sire line–and is extinct in Kentucky. Matchem lived to the present age only through West Australian in the US (the Hastings/Fair Play line) which is still comparatively alive; and Solon/Barcaldine in Europe (Hurry On/Precipitation) which is now, I believe, extinct worldwide. A good 95% of all TB sire lines derive from Eclipse, and that line has also dwindled to representatives of only one or two Eclipse lines. Over 90% of the male Eclipse line descends from Stockwell/Phalaris.
I personally believe that the “all purpose” TB was created many centuries ago by an admixture of all three of the foundation lines (and certain sire lines that persisted in mares) and that having all three of the foundation sire lines relatively close (first page + the sire of mares in the fifth) is good “outbreeding” strategy that can “reinforce” traits and strengths from much farther back in the pedigree. Herod and Matchem have always been notable lines for Jumping TBs, but these two do not have the same Y chromosome as the Eclipse/Waxy line that is so dominant today. The Saint Simon line derived from another Eclipse son and does not have the mutated Y chromosome. FWIW, Bay Ronald descends from Waxy, as does Teddy. But Teddy is from the Stockwell/Bend Or line, and Bay Ronald is from the Newminster line.
I personally think that a good mixture is useful for soundness and for breeding effectiveness, and having the “ancient” sire mixture relaively close helps to counteract some of the trends in modern TB breeding.
The first page of the pedigree is the first five generations; I add the sire of the mares in the fifth generation.
There was an interesting Anne Peters TB pedigree commentary yesterday or today in the Blood Horse where she mentions that Herod tail male is extinct in Kentucky and has been for decades. She says that something like 5% of KY stallions derive from In Reality, most from Tiznow.
The male gene pool in TBs continuously shrinks.
Here’s her article.
Kentucky Sire Lines for 2015
By Anne Peters
With nearly all 2015 stud fees announced for Kentucky stallions, there are 175 stallions, give or take, standing in the Bluegrass State at a fee of $5,000 or more. The dominant sire lines are very evenly represented, with 53 from the Northern Dancer line edging out the 52 from the Mr. Prospector line, and a few other minority strains in support. That’s 30% for Northern Dancer and 29% for Mr. Prospector. This is a minor but surprising shift in favor of Northern Dancer over the all-American Mr. Prospector.
This balance is similar to the status quo 10 years ago, in 2005, when there were 259 sires standing in Kentucky for $5,000 or higher, but then, the Mr. Prospector line edged out the Northern Dancer line 85 to 78, or 33% to 30%.
Storm Cat still holds a dominant place in the Northern Dancer hierarchy, 13% of the stallions now as then, while the Americanized Sadler’s Wells line through El Prado is moving up in numbers. Danzig is still a force, and up a percent due to the smaller stallion colony and War Front, while Deputy Minister has gone down by a percent.
Among the Mr. Prospector-line sires, descendants of Fappiano are taking the biggest chunk of the action (10%), followed by Gone West, Distorted Humor, Smart Strike, and Street Cry.
In 2005 the next tier of sires was also a contentious one. Seattle Slew had 21 descendants (8%) including 14 through his son A.P. Indy (5%). Close behind Seattle Slew was Hail to Reason with 14 sire descendants (5%). In 2015 this third spot falls solidly to Seattle Slew, now exclusively through A.P. Indy, with 31 (18%); while the Hail to Reason-line sires come in with 12 (7%). Both numbers have improved from 2005, but the gap between the Seattle Slews and the Hail to Reasons is now greater, thanks to the proliferation of the A.P. Indy sons, mostly through Pulpit.
The In Reality male line ranks fifth in 2015, with nine active sires (5%), nearly all through Tiznow and his sons, except for Successful Appeal (by Valid Appeal). This is up from 2005 when only 2% of the sires represented this rare male line, going back to Man o’ War and on back to Matchem and the Godolphin Arabian. All the rest discussed here are from various strains of the Eclipse/Darley Arabian line. The Herod/Byerley Turk male line has been extinct in Kentucky for decades.
The remaining sire lines represented are almost vestigial, including the 5% descending from various Nasrullah lines other than the Seattle Slew branch, namely Caro, Blushing Groom, and Yes It’s True. Blushing Groom has experienced a significant drop in numbers, with only Animal Kingdom (by Leroidesanimaux) and Revolutionary (by War Pass) representing a male line that had 13 stallions (5%) in Kentucky in 2005.
The Caro line has dwindled from five sires to three; Mizzen Mast (by Cozzene), Uncle Mo, and Liaison (the latter pair by Indian Charlie).
Yes It’s True is all that’s left of the many Bold Ruler strains excluding Seattle Slew’s. In 2005 there were six other Bold Ruler-line sires: Yes It’s True, Glitterman and his son Champali, Beau Genius, Cobra King, and Fit to Fight.
Macho Uno and his son Mucho Macho Man represent a 100% increase in the Great Above male line represented by only Holy Bull in 2005. This line goes back almost 100 years to Himyar, who is also the tail-male ancestor of Include. His sire, Broad Brush, was the sole flag bearer of this line in Kentucky in 2005.
The Ribot male line has dwindled in 2015 to Nobiz Like Shobiz and Albertus Maximus (who stands for a private fee), both sons of Albert the Great, by Go for Gin, by Cormorant by His Majesty. In 2005 this tribe also boasted three sons of Pleasant Colony, but the last of these, Pleasantly Perfect, left for Turkey this fall.
Super Saver and Monarchos (standing at $4,000) are the last of the Maria’s Mons at stud in Kentucky, a branch of the Raise a Native male line coming through Majestic Prince.
We’ve lost a few significant male lines over the last decade, such as those of Prince John and Damascus and Buckpasser to name a few. Fortunately, many of these survive on the dam’s side of the stallion pedigrees, so their influence is still strong in the gene pool.
Awesome article, viney! Thank you 
Thanks again Viney. I have a better idea of what you are discussing.
I’ve noticed that many people who love the TB really, really, really, seem to absorb pedigree knowledge.
I am in awe.
Bumping for an update here 12gates ```` 2 weeks til Christmas !
Bumping for an update here 12gates ~
Please note that there are only two weeks til Christmas !
What will be standing tied to your tree ???
Zuzu – you are very bad and an enabler.
I made a pact with DH. If he’s still available on the day after Christmas, I’m going to go see him and bring my old vet with me (as well a trailer).
Is this enough variation Vineyridge?
These are the horses in the fifth generation of my horse and behind their names te stallion in the sireline in their fifth generation:
Lorenzaccio - Ksar
Helen Nichols - Teddy
Swing Easy - Gainsborough
Golden City - The Boss
Lyphard - Phalaris
Lupe II - Ksar
Habitat - Pharos
Milly Moss - Swynford
Lorenzaccio - Ksar
Helen Nichols - Teddy
Top Ville - Nearco
Enperia - Nearco
Habitat - Pharos
Tingitana - Rose Prince
So Blessed - Phalaris
Collyria - Prince Palatine
Nearctic - Cyllene
Natalma - Phalaris
Admiral’s Voyage - Ajax
Petitioner - Polymelus
Tom Fool - Cyllene
Busanda - Spendthrift
Sir Gaylord - Phalaris
Missy Baba - Bruleur
Roberto - Pharos
Arabia - Sun Teddy
Son Ange - Sickle
Flying Needles - Gainsborough
Forli - Bay Ronald
Stay at Home - Phalaris
Lord Gayle - Pharos
Turkish Suspicion - Phalaris
@ Twelvegates: I think that from the pictures the gelding is an incredibly good looking horse.
I’m not normally a TB person, but good Lord that’s a nice horse!:yes: He’s not too tall, either.
Elles, he has all three of the foundation stallions, but only one line to Matchem through Busanda. He’s got four lines to Herod/Dollar and lines to both Waxy and King Fergus from Eclipse. He lacks the Le Sancy Herod line and the Barcaldine Matchem line. Those are all the TB sire lines that made it to the late 20th/early 21st century.
In fact, AFAIK, the TB sirelines are:
Eclipse–Stockwell/Bend Or; Bay Ronald/Newminster; King Fergus/St. Simon/Prince Palatine and Rabelais/Ribot
Matchem–West Australian/Spendthrift/Fair Play; Barcaldine/Hurry On/Precipitation
Herod: Dollar/Bruleur; Le Sancy/Roi Herode
Obviously the Y chromosome doesn’t matter all that much since I would bet that just about 100% of Non-Iberian Warmbloods have the Eclipse/Waxy version of that gene. I think the Nimmedor line may be the only exception, and even it goes back to the Darley Arabian, but pre the Y mutation.
Wow. He is a gorgeous horse. OP, you are a BAD, BAD enabler!
Slightly off topic:
It’s nice to know that us Arabian folks aren’t the only one who happily get “in the weeds” about pedigrees.:lol:
[QUOTE=vineyridge;7905117]
Elles, he has all three of the foundation stallions, but only one line to Matchem through Busanda. He’s got four lines to Herod/Dollar and lines to both Waxy and King Fergus from Eclipse. He lacks the Le Sancy Herod line and the Barcaldine Matchem line. Those are all the TB sire lines that made it to the late 20th/early 21st century.
In fact, AFAIK, the TB sirelines are:
Eclipse–Stockwell/Bend Or; Bay Ronald/Newminster; King Fergus/St. Simon/Prince Palatine and Rabelais/Ribot
Matchem–West Australian/Spendthrift/Fair Play; Barcaldine/Hurry On/Precipitation
Herod: Dollar/Bruleur; Le Sancy/Roi Herode
Obviously the Y chromosome doesn’t matter all that much since I would bet that just about 100% of Non-Iberian Warmbloods have the Eclipse/Waxy version of that gene. I think the Nimmedor line may be the only exception, and even it goes back to the Darley Arabian, but pre the Y mutation.[/QUOTE]
Thank you for your reply Vineyridge.
With regard to the Le Sancy / Roi Herode I can only think of Alizier but there must be more male lines that survived into the 21st century. In warmbloods there is ofcourse Ramzes and is Ex Voto also of that line?
In the sport horse world, Last News in Ireland, the Gem Twist clones, and a young stallion in West Virginia named Classic Twist are all direct tail male descendants of Bonne Nuit, a Roi Herode line descendant. AFAIK, that’s about all the TBs left from Roi Herode. Alizier has a Matchem line dam, which is unusual and interesting, since he combines Herod and Matchem. Busoni, an Alizier son, stood for Celle in Germany for many years, but left no stallion sons. His daughters, though, have been exceptional tail female dressage lines. Ex Voto is male line to Le Sancy, but again seems to have left no tail male descendants lasting to the present day.
Very nice!
@ Vineyridge: I am wondering what his offspring are doing at the moment:
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=376342
[QUOTE=Elles;7906559]
@ Vineyridge: I am wondering what his offspring are doing at the moment:
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=376342[/QUOTE]
Well, he’s the grandsire, through an SF stallion, of the horse Matelot du Grand Val out of a TB mare, who was ridden by Jean Teulere in Eventing at the Normandy WEG. Horse has been with Teulere for years and has completed both Badminton and Pau.
Dam’s name is Marine.
King’s Road was a steeplechaser and Webpedigrees shows him with over 400 get. About 95% of those are SFs, AA, and ACs. He doesn’t seem to have left a TB stallion son that is breeding. One suspects that the French used him for breeding Chasers. I checked in France Galop, and they show only 90 get, not 440. 65 of the 90 were chasers. Almost all were SF, and there were no breeding TB sons.
For some reason, he isn’t in Horse Telex that I can find.
[QUOTE=vineyridge;7906692]
Well, he’s the grandsire, through an SF stallion, of the horse Matelot du Grand Val out of a TB mare, who was ridden by Jean Teulere in Eventing at the Normandy WEG. Horse has been with Teulere for years and has completed both Badminton and Pau.
Dam’s name is Marine.
King’s Road was a steeplechaser and Webpedigrees shows him with over 400 get. About 95% of those are SFs, AA, and ACs. He doesn’t seem to have left a TB stallion son that is breeding. One suspects that the French used him for breeding Chasers.
For some reason, he isn’t in Horse Telex that I can find.[/QUOTE]
http://www.studforlife.com/news_detail.php?id=3565
Urioso de Laume (Diam’s du Grasset x King’s Road xx
http://www.studforlife.com/presse/2014/photo/2014-09-11_Fontainebleau/6ans/UriosoLaume.jpg
