So I take it we aren’t allowed to talk about Helglstrand video here?

[Knights_Mom]

If the horse world itself doesn’t regulate abusive riding, someone else most certainly will.

[alicen]

Who?

[BrownDerby]

PETA for a start.

[Knights_Mom]

@alicen

Who?

Public opinion.

The same way fur is not really a status symbol any more.

The same way public opinion closed down Orca shows.

The same way public opinion got rid of exotic animals in circuses.

[Manni01]

Yes! I agree!

[J-Lu]

@DownYonder

Many years ago, I and a trainer friend visited a big well-established breeding operation in Germany. The place stood a plethora of stallions whose names were household names in those days (well, dressage households, anyway). Several of the stallions were actively competing, some at very big international competitions. We had been invited to watch a training session by the in-house trainer and her trainer who was visiting from a neighboring country. When we arrived, they were both riding, each on a quite well-known FEI stallion.

My friend and I were dismayed to see the EXTREMELY short reins and the horses’ chins being held firmly on their chests. The trainers rode this way for the entire 45-50 minute session. At one point, the visiting trainer made his horse piaffe while he smoked a cigarette - the horse had to piaffe the entire time. The trainer had all four reins and a whip in one hand and used the other hand to hold his cigarette. Every once in a while if the horse faltered or got out of rhythm, the rider would crack the horse with the whip. This guy also made the horse do one-tempis across the diagonal, over and over again. If the horse started rushing or missed a change, the guy would halt it (roughly) and back it up all the way back to the corner of the arena, it’s nose on its chest the entire time.

I had rather admired that in-house trainer for a while, but seeing that training session in person made me lose all respect for her. I later mentioned what I had seen to another party who frequented many training barns in Europe and was told rather matter-of-factly, “That is how it is done everywhere. Training sometimes isn’t pretty.”

It was an eye-opening experience to say the least.

I had an Olympian ride my horse and do this. I never, ever came so close as to telling the clinician to get off my horse. I didn’t and I regret it. I sure paid the price at Regional Championships the following week.

[Knights_Mom]

This is why many would not mourn the cessation of horse shows especially internationally.

[Cowgirl]

This is not just about training that is hidden behind NDAs in a barn: I’ve seen Facebook posts of proud people showing their horse trussed up like Thanksgiving turkey. One I saw had one kind of contraption on one side of the horse and another kind of contraption on the other side. Young horse, broken at the third vertebrae and tight in the back, being prepared for the US Young Horse finals. Sad.

[tohorse]

Maybe I just don’t get fashion but the dressage world has horrified me for a while and for the longest time scoring has been head scratcher for me.

There are riders that are a pleasure to watch but yes maybe the horse does not kick the front hooves to the sky and they get to mid sixties… not a bad score by any means but then there are people like Helgstrand or e.g. Dinja Van Liere and I just thought that the whole ride was just so tight and umm unpleasant to watch? I have no beef against her but I don’t really understand why e.g. her performances are closer to ideal than some of the Asian riders that never seem to break 75% or even 70%.

But I also recognise that riders like Peters or von Bredow Werndl that I think really have that impressive connection with their horses and are the whole “package” have the benefit of stable, wealthy sponsors that many athletes don’t. Not just that - Akiko Yamazaki and Beatrice Burchler Keller are both real, long term patrons of dressage and as a result let the athletes develop horses correctly without undue pressure to pay the bills…

[Cowboy_Girl]

Having worked with and been a “western trainer” type, I have no clue what you are talking about. But to be fair, western trainers talk about about how english riders ceaselessly hang on their horses mouths with tight reins.

[Bluey]

@Cowboy_Girl

Having worked with and been a “western trainer” type, I have no clue what you are talking about. But to be fair, western trainers talk about about how english riders ceaselessly hang on their horses mouths with tight reins.

True, many western trainers have too many horses to work them by the hours.
They try to teach each as much as they can with relatively short and easy training and move on to the next one.
Much of that training is like watching paint dry, not that much happening but preparing for the next step.
Competition is very technical any more, just pulling a horse out of the pasture and going to shows, or wearing a horse down without real specific training won’t make a trainer consistent and a winner.

Practically all anyone today does with horses can in some way or another be considered “wrong” by others that are not in that discipline, mostly because unless you are doing it yourself, is hard to “get” it.
That has never stopped critics of what “others” do.

[sascha]

@Cowboy_Girl

Having worked with and been a “western trainer” type, I have no clue what you are talking about. But to be fair, western trainers talk about about how english riders ceaselessly hang on their horses mouths with tight reins.

Would I argue that many English riders ceaselessly hang on their horses’ mouths with tight reins. No. Many do. Not all, but many.

That, however, does NOT negate my observations of ‘cowboy’ ‘trainers’ I have observed in person. Whether you like it or not, “wet saddle blanket” training has negative connotations to many that have observed the wearing down of horses that takes place instead of proper training.

[Bluey]

I was watching the olympics with some friends, cutting and roping trainers.
Nicole Uphoff with Rembrandt were on and had a marvelous dressage test, soft and fluid and correct.

The comment from the clueless western riders was, does she ever let the horse have its head, he is so very uptight and stiff, never has a chance to relax!
To them the highest level of dressage competition was an ugly and unnatural way of going for a horse.

Different strokes …

[MHM]

@Bluey

To them the highest level of dressage competition was an ugly and unnatural way of going for a horse.

That’s a little ironic, just because I don’t think I’ve ever seen a horse loose in the pasture do that slow motion four beat lope that they like to do in western pleasure.

Which is not to say that most horses do dressage movements loose in the pasture. But it’s the same basic concept.

[Bluey]

@MHM

That’s a little ironic, just because I don’t think I’ve ever seen a horse loose in the pasture do that slow motion four beat lope that they like to do in western pleasure.

Which is not to say that most horses do dressage movements loose in the pasture. But it’s the same basic concept.

[spotnnotfarm]

Then you have watched some crappy ones. I am fairly certain I have observed many more than you and the ones I know quit as soon as a horse gets what ever they were working on. They do not purposely lather a horse to exhaustion, that makes the horse hate work and quit. They quit when the horse starts to understand and build on it the next day…

[Mardi1]

@Bluey

The comment from the clueless western riders was, does she ever let the horse have its head, he is so very uptight and stiff, never has a chance to relax!
To them the highest level of dressage competition was an ugly and unnatural way of going for a horse.

Actually, the dressage horses they watched were being ridden uphill, which is how horses move naturally. Watch them in a turn out or pasture…when they move off into a trot or canter, the front end rises, the hind end lowers and propels them forward. That’s how they’re built to move.

Conversely, western horses are ridden in a down hill way, on the forehand. This is not the natural way horses move. (Although western horses being ridden on the open range for real cowboy work, are ridden uphill). I believe that the western discipline is the only riding style that rides their horses down hill. If someone can think of another discipline that rides horses downhill, I’d welcome the info.

[sascha]

@spotnnotfarm

Then you have watched some crappy ones.

This is about “wet saddle blanket” ‘training’ not about whether there are good or bad western trainers. There certainly lots of good ones. It’s the “wet saddle blanket” as something a horse needs/a legitimate training method that I have a problem with.

[Alterration]

@Mardi1

Conversely, western horses are ridden in a down hill way, on the forehand. This is not the natural way horses move. (Although western horses being ridden on the open range for real cowboy work, are ridden uphill). I believe that the western discipline is the only riding style that rides their horses down hill. If someone can think of another discipline that rides horses downhill, I’d welcome the info.

I’d argue that many, bred for purpose, do move this way now.

Not arguing that it’s good for them necessarily, but I’m arguing that they do. They don’t lift their heads up. They just don’t, even when excited. I’ve got one in my barn right now that was bred this way. If his poll is ever higher than his withers, look out, he is WOUND UP. You are about to die.

His head can be on the ground and he can be stepping well under his midline, stretching over his back, but still slow as heck. I didn’t train him to be that way, he came with that particular gear and motion. I bought him because he was safe and I needed something safe after a bad accident.

Many of them if you watch them loose in the pasture even when “chased with bags” go around sniffing the ground and shuffling their feet, comparatively.

And it’s not all of the western disciplines. You can’t really cut a cow like that or do ranch work. Western Pleasure and HUS are like this, but not the rest of them.

[Alterration]

@sascha

This is about “wet saddle blanket” ‘training’ not about whether there are good or bad western trainers. There certainly lots of good ones. It’s the “wet saddle blanket” as something a horse needs/a legitimate training method that I have a problem with.

I saw this come up before and I always heard of it as “this horse needs a lot more rides/experience” not “this horse needs to be worked into the ground”. I suppose it depends on the type of western trainer (good or bad) that you heard it from.