They only need to look in the mirror when the USEF Dressage Committee (which is made up of USDF people) rejected the USDF BOG recommendation on changing the the MFS Qualifying Score.
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Yeah but ā¦
The test and its scoring then needs to be a well designed instrument for measuring meaningful differences in the performances of a single horse/rider pair over time. As it stands it is an o.k. instrument for some pairs and for others itās an instrument that cannot distinguish signals of individual performance and development from other sources of variation.
I donāt really know any dressage riders who arenāt sold on the idea of self-competition ā the shows Iāve volunteered at most recently tend to have plenty of unclaimed ribbons, for example, and I know more than one AA that keeps spreadsheets to track their own scores and comments. But I think itās de-motivating when the separation between oneās best and worst scores is <5%, or when a riderās worst ever test scores better than their best ever performance thanks to subjective differences in what baseline gait quality the person in the judgeās box perceives, or when the same non-actionable comments show up reliably on every test. These things happen all the time and they do not make for meaningful self-competition.
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I think you could list your accomplishmentsā¦ I am happy to bite - as someone who is very vocal about this issueā¦
Although full training is not something I can do long term, because I canāt afford it as an ongoing part of my life, my Pony is currently in full training, and Iāve been taking regular lessons for most of my dressage career. On and off (more off then on) in full training, and have great relationship with the handful of people I work with. But part of the point of this thread - many of us really canāt afford full training - why does it require that $$$$$$$ commitment? What about weekly lessons for the capable rider?
I have brought MANY clinics to the area - as riders in my area will tell you - privately, AND through my GMO. Two main clinicians (multiple times), as well as a few others. Iāve also found ways to make some of the clinics educational events, and applied for grants to underwrite the cost.
Iāve hauled people for no charge - seriously do people charge to haul their friends? Iāve hauled fellow students several hundred miles because they didnāt have a trailer, and I was going that direction. Iāve also loaned my trailer to people. For free. I didnāt realize people CHARGE for that kind of thing?
Ride my Pony? Not a great idea, heās very sensitive and tempermental. Back in the days when I had a trail horse - yep, a lot of people got to ride him. And when I had a really cool horse who was tolerant, a few juniors even took him to our Junior Championship show (he was reserve champion twice with kids), and he went to a few clinics and schooling shows with different riders. But my current guy is not a packer - which is why he went through several homes before I got him. Nope, not a good idea.
Want to know what else Iāve done for my area? Organized and ran an L Program - over 100 people audited each of the first 3 sessions. Organized and ran a clinic series with top notch trainers (as in international judge quality) for lower level riders (pro or AA or Jr) - and funded half of it through grants and L program profits (so riders only paid half the cost). Organized and ran a judges training and allowed free auditing. Organized and ran a two part biomechanics symposium - part one unmounted, NO horse necessary - free. Part two, horse required - free. Also long time chair of my dressage chapter. I also volunteer scribe enough to be on first name basis with a lot of judges. Iām sure there is more - I am a committed volunteer and education fanatic. No one can accuse me of NOT helping out the dressage community.
OK - what have you done?
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Iāve mentioned it before, and Iāll mention it again - the same dressage tests, but not judged based on scopey gaits. Judged like they use to judge them - where the gaits only effect the score if they are impure, or if it is a brilliance movement (reach is going to make a difference in the extended trot). Otherwise, score is based on CORRECTNESS.
Please donāt say that canāt be done - it IS done. Iāve judged intercollegiate competitions, that is exactly how they worked. Iāve also judged OPRC, and that is also how they score. If I, a lowly AA L Graduate , can judge it, so can an r, R, or S. I donāt care what you name it - call it Alternative Dressage, GDC Dressage (gaits donāt count), BTB (back to the basics), Old Fashioned, Iām sure someone can come up with something catchy. AND - let people earn their medals in the classes.
Then give people the choice - which division do they want. Fancy Gaits classes or Old Fashioned classes?
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I think that is a genius idea.
Howeverā¦That would require that the USDF actually do some introspection and admit they need to take a new direction.
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You are wrong (not trying to be a witch, but you asked). If you want to participate in the L Program and go through the Evaluative part of it (aka Part 2), you need 3rd level scores. Not everyone who participates and goes through Part 2 wants to become a judge - some just want to LEARN, and you learn a LOT as a participant. You get access to materials that the auditors donāt have access to. Part 2 is hugely educational - and no auditors allowed.
And for anyone who has every applied to be a demo rider in any of the USDF programs (such as the Young Horse Development Program, or the FEI Trainers Conference), you have to meet their criteria.
Iām sure there are others, these are just examples where friends of mine have not made the cutā¦
I think it is the division between the AAs and Pros, not a show division, but the perception division.
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Uh, yeah, Iām aware that in shows you can enter AA or Open.
(which are two different divisions, not the AA Open division)
Donāt really understand how āemphasizingā (ā¦um, ā¦?) this contributes to lack of accessibility in dressage.
Part 2 is for people who actually intend to give back to the sport BY JUDGING, which is the whole purpose of the program. The clinic, the materials, the instructorās band width, participant question time etc is FOR THE PEOPLE WHO WILL DO THE WORK the program is there to prepare people to do. Itās not for people who have no intention of using the skills learned for the purpose of the program,so they can use up half of question time to ride their one horse better.
And yes, you have to meet the requirements to be a demo rider. Because again, demo riding is FOR THE OTHER PEOPLE.
The purpose of demo riding is DEMO riding, not learning riding. You are there to serve the clinician and be the example they use to teach the observers, who are paying to learn from the clinician. None of them give a shit about the demo riderās learning experience, and thatās completely fine,because they are paying for THEMSELVES to learn,not for the demo rider to learn. You are there to be the power point presentation, not a student.
Thus you need to ride like whatever example the clinician wants to have. If the clinician wants to show a series of lead change exercises, you have to he able to do lead changes. If the clinician wants to do a young horse clinic, you have to be able to ride a young horse in a big environment and just do whatever the clinician says, and in the manner the clinician would want his own young horses ridden. Do you ride like someone the clinician would pick to keep his young horses in work while away? Do you ride like someone where the clinician can say, āSee everyone? This is how young horses should be ridden. Do that.ā You are a TOOL of the clinic, not the designated BENEFICIARY of the clinic.
So the clinician will, indeed, evaluate potential demo riders based on how useful they will be to the clinic, how correctly and competently they will execute the requirements of the clinic (even if itās to ride wrong on purpose for a long side to show the difference), and how much the OBSERVERS are likely to benefit from the demo rider they are paying to watch ride around. You also need to benefit all levels of riders. Do you think an upper level professional with three client-owned youngsters in training who is paying hundreds to watch to benefit THEIR OWN riding is going to be helped by watching an adult amateur with one horse who hasnāt brought a horse past second before demonstrating the concepts???
See?
Here we have two examples of people wanting āmore accessā to things, without thinking about who the "accessā is supposed to be benefitting, and what you need to OFFER TO OTHER PEOPLE to earn the slot. These slots are for people who are doing more than just ātakingā from the purpose of the clinic. You donāt get these slots if your taking a spot is just going to benefit your own riding at home. They will give the slot to people whose participation will benefit more people.
You need to OFFER more access/education to GET more.
My point exactly.
*And btw, I completely agree with Pluvinel that the USDF way overemphasizes competition and has essentially abandoned education.
*And MysticOak, yes people charge for trailering. I have charged friends for trailering, and happily pay friends for trailering, because I am aware that time is valuable, gas isnāt free, and trailers cost a lot to maintain. That said, $50 for a distance I could personally run on foot, to a venue the āfriendā was hauling to anyway, got a pretty big thanks but no thanks from me.
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Huh? What about SCHOOLING SHOW judges? Is that not giving back? Do you have any IDEA how many times Iāve judged for free, or for the cost of gas and lunch, for Pony Club, schooling shows, educational programs? THAT is a big part of the L Program.
What about people who want to advance their knowledge - whether AA or Pro? What about those who want to help their STUDENTS become better competitors? There are a lot of reasons that people go through the L program.
If we only reserved slots to those who wanted to become ārealā judges (who meet the REQUIREMENTS for becoming an ārā which include competition requirements AND the ability to travel all over the US to meet the education requirements), then you will never fill up a Part 2. Have you ever run one? I have, and have helped out with two others - and of the Part 2 (forget Part 1, just Part 2) people, MAYBE 1 or 2 of them move on to become a āreal judgeā. In my program, I actually gave first priority to those who already had the competition scores to move on to at least the R program, and even doing that, only 3 of my Part 2 people have moved on. Iām pretty proud of that - 3 is a huge percentage. Also proud that ALL 10 of mine passed the Exam, and NINE passed with distinction. Only 3 have moved on, and of those 3, TWO of them are ārā judges, and one of them is working on it.
If I had to only serve the 3 that were moving on - I could not have made the Part 2 affordable. I have to pay for TWO faculty members - flights, hotel, food, and daily rate for the final exam. Do you have any idea how expensive that would be if it was spread over three people?
Here you go, from USDFās website: "What if I do not want to become a licensed judge, may I still participate in the program?
Yes, the L Program is not just for those who want to become licensed dressage judges. The programās intent is to give competitors, trainers, and instructors a broader insight into the evaluative techniques of judging dressage, qualify individuals to officiate at schooling shows, serve as continuing education for licensed judges, and to serve as a prerequisites for entering into the USEF/USDF ārā Judges Training Program."
And that is an example of someone who is not thinking big picture - that there is more to these educational programs then just judges and FEI competitors. That educating MORE people makes it more affordable and better for MORE people.
Btw, youāve just helped make one of my points. Yes, you do have to qualify to ride in the USDF programs
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I think the root of the solution is not to start at the top. But start at the bottom.
GMOs have to adhere to the USDF rules and guidelines equally , but they arent all equal in what they offer or the size of the membership.
That is to be expected. In my region one state has 10 GMOs . 1 state has one.
If a GMO has the wrong leadership , it merely becomes a clique. This alienates the members who are made to feel unappreciated and overlooked. So they leave.
I am sure that the cost of showing and membership fees are a hardship for some members but I dont think that is the only reason for members leaving.
Part of the problem is the vastness of the US.
A region can have fewer states and yet have a large number of GMOs .
A region can have a large number of states but those states have fewer GMOs .
A region can have many GMOs but they are not evenly distributed through out the geographical area.
This matters very much when it comes to competing at Regionals or other recognized shows.
If you live in BF Egypt and have to travel 500 or 600 miles one way the transportation costs alone create a hardship for most AAs . Not to mention the extra time off from work to be able to attend the recognized shows, with the extra days for travel time.
One way of solving this problem is to ask the USDF to consider letting each region pick a central location for the venue for Regionals . The way I understand it, Regionals are held at different sites each year.
Another solution might be for grants to be available to AAs at the GMO level from the GMO level.
Your GMO may already do this but I dont know if all of them do.
Maybe create a grant program for your GMO that disperses funds for a specific event.
Ex: Sweet Suzie wants to ride in a clinic with a BNT but cant afford to pay.
Create an entry form with a check box that lets a member donate to a grant fund to help Sweet Suzie pay to ride in the clinic. Or let a member contribute to general fund with the understanding that the money will be spent to pay the fee for the clinic.
If there is more than Sweet Suzie needs then put it back into the GMO grant fund.
If Sweet Suzie wants to go to Regionals then she can apply for a grant to help defray the costs .
Make it conditional and contingent upon Sweet Suzie putting up funds of her own.
Have a list of members who will trailer Sweet Suzie to Regionals or a recognized show for some gas money or share the cost of lodgings.
Make it clear that it is voluntary and no one will be pressured into giving.
Some GMOs may do this already and a lot more.
But maybe the regional directors and the USDF can create ways to help AAs with the cost of showing at the GMO level with all of the GMOs.
They may do this already, but from what I could see from the USDF web site , this does not appear to be the case.
Not trying to reinvent the wheel here. If all of this is old news, then I apologize . It is new to me.
I specificly mentioned being a candidate in the L programs. And OF COURSE demo riders should have criteria! Good heavens they want to show what they want to show!
And I highly recommend scribing for a candidate. You get to listem in to much more than just as an auditor.
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MUCH of this already exists. I have suggested before that you check The Dressage Foundation for all their grants. As far as Regional go, there is a process, and of course requirements. The Regional DIrectors are very involved in the selection of venues. FEW facilities can handle 500 horses and the need for 5 or more arenas with separate warmup for each arena. Even in Region 3, we have a hard time getting places other than Wellington and the Georgia Horse Park. This year itās in Ocala at the Florida Horse Park but it is not a perfect venue. We will soon have the WOrld Equestrian Center South here, who knows what the future brings.
GMOs exist where people want them to exist. They are made by groups of people who form a GMO - jsut that. Their location is not controlled by USDF at all.
Before you complain about what could/should be done, be sure you check out what IS BEING DONE.
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Reading all this giving back partā¦ yes there would be an amazing way to give back to the sport.
ā¦ It is done in other organisations in the US so I know so it would be possible.and the argument but the US is different doesnāt countā¦
what about if the super rich which participate happily in Dressage shows give back to the sport by sponsoring testsā¦ if you donāt get this stupid ribbon but a check of $50 instead I think it would encourage everybody to participateā¦
And the super rich wouldnāt even feel itā¦ Right now they spend a lot of money for sponsoring judgesā¦ it seems to be ok and accepted, but itās making the sport even more unevenā¦
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Since a lot of this thread is about off breeds, this pony you are talking about that won this class is actually half quarter horse. So as far as its breeding it is sort of a backyard type of horse. Just had the fortunate experience of having some excellent training.
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I would like to see the USDF finally change their mandate from education to showing since that is what they are 90% about. They no longer offer very much in education, especially for AAās so just drop the guise of being about education.
The other part of the USDF is they cannot provide education or showing for everyone, the country is just to big to accommodate it, so donāt tell riders you are here for everyone when you actually only offer to a minority of the riders in a few areas of the country.
Beyond that, the problem is really the size of the USA is just too vast and many areas are remote without access to trainers, riding lessons, GMOās, you name it. How do you make a sport accessible to everyone when you are thousands of miles are separating you?
I wish the USDF would republish the old Dressage and CT since they own the rights to it (as a subscription and not a part of their membership). For some of us that was our only access to top trainers and information.
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lorilu :
So besides being the complaint police what are you trying to say?
I did look up the Dressage Foundation grants.
There werenāt many.
And an applicant has to compete with members across the US.
If the USDF had a specific program with each GMO that designated donations for the purpose of dispensing funds for AAs then I believe AAs would feel like they were getting their moneys worth for their membership dues.
Iām not the one complaining.
I said from the beginning, it is not the job of the USDF to subsidize the less affluent members.
But if you are going to take peoples money then you do have to be mindful of you are giving in return.
I can see why itās a financial hardship for AAs who want to move up the levels and compete
The membership fees are onerous and then you add in the show fees, etc. And the fact that are fewer recognized shows
If all GMOs had a grant program in conjunction with the USDF then they could dispense funds for a specific need.
And the recipient has to meet criteria. Itās not a blank check.
If Sweet Suzie wants to ride in a clinic with BNT but cant pay for all of it, then she can apply to her GMO for a grant.
But she has to meet the criteria
itās not a blank check for training level riders to ride in clinics geared toward PSG . Or to be able to say
"I rode in a clinic taught by a BNT or an Olympian "
I also said that some GMOS may already do this , and if they do , its great and if you are a member of such a one be thankful.
You are in a state that has many GMOs, and a lot of horse people. You have many more facilities and opportunities than someone who lives in a state with one GMO and has to travel for 1 or 2 days to get to a recognized show.
If your response to this is āSo?ā then its obvious that you dont get it.
If all you have to say is, āStop complaining!ā then you really dont have anything useful to contribute .
This has been an enlightening thread for me . I have been reading up and researching and I found out a lot I didnāt know and I readjusted my thinking on some points.
āā¹And I appreciate the thoughtful posters who kindly correct my errors of fact without making it personal or getting snarky.
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I was just thinking exactly thatā¦I have a stash of old D&CTās with articles that are great.
Now that technology has evolved, USDF could make D&CT available electronically (for a fee) and that could count towards education.
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Manni with all due respect to you, you may want to be careful about over generalizing.
Please specify about which rules make it difficult for you to compete , either logistically or financially.
Iām not sure why you think Dressage is all about money. Please elaborate.
From what I have read in previous responses on other threads , you seem to have enough resources to own your own farm, have several horses and compete regularly.
You may not mean to, but you come across as ungrateful.
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Where did I say anything about restricting Part 2 to just people who want to become licensed judges? Itās for people on their way to being licensed judges, and for people who want that extra qualification for schooling shows -backed up by scores they have previously earned- although it is still of course possible to judge a schooling show without your L.
Perhaps the evaluative portion of the program could focus its bandwidth ON THEM.
Other randoms from the community donāt need to be invited to watch them take the test and get potentially critical feedback from the evaluators. Iām sure glad nobody was invited to audit me taking the bar exam.
And it sure seemed to me like you were complaining about the exclusivity of having to meet requirements to demo ride. Since you were citing that as an example of lack of accessibility.
Yeah, demo riding isnāt accessible to everyone. The slots go to the best rider available for that particular clinic. Itās like that for obvious reasons, not an access problem.
If you think soā¦
Not sure why I am ungrateful because I know that showing Dressage in the US is overpricedā¦ I donāt believe it, I know itā¦
Maybe a big problem is that people who have the money spend it and donāt really care for people who cannot afford itā¦
I grew up in a country which tries to leave none of its citizen behindā¦
And JFYI. I did not move to the US because it think itās the greatest country on earth and it it perfect in all regardsā¦ So I donāt see a reason to be grateful to be able to live hereā¦ I paid for every inch I useā¦
but back to the topic, I am a member of the CCRC of Americaā¦ There there are members with more money and members with less money. Every year they have specialty where they meet. Some of the members are extremly generous with donations to make this event happenā¦ Itās an amazing event and it is possible for every member who can get a vacation from work to attendā¦ I donāt think anybody has the feeling that he will be broke if he attendsā¦ Every member gives according to his abilities to make this happen because itās such an amazing eventā¦
And these are Americansā¦ So why cannot this attitude get implemented in Dressage???
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