So what can be done to make Dressage more affordable?

[MysticOakRanch]

@Manni01

Somehow I sense that things are changing a little… I have had my opinion for some years now and I remember how I was bashed for it in the beginning.
Very very glad that people start to see the point that overpriced shows really don’t improve the quality of showing…And I hope that they are not content to be placed in the schooling show department, which Lorilu promotes… This is only profitable for USDF because they get most of the fees from the GMOs and they leave all the work for the GMO chapters…

I really more agree on your specific post - dividing into multiple organizations solves nothing (and those invested in the “master organization” will enjoy seeing this fail).

As for shows being too expensive - I still believe that show fees are such a small part of the cost. Most of the people I know, dropped out because they can’t afford the fancy horses and the full training bills, and got tired of feeling like the 2nd class citizen at shows. The actual show fees were such a small %.

I am not sure where we cut show fees, unless USEF/USDF are willing to do a mass overhaul of their reporting/paperwork requirements, so we can go back to volunteer run shows. And since a vast % of our volunteers have left the fold (because they were the same ones that couldn’t afford the fancy horses and full training), I don’t know if that would even help.

But I do agree that the attitude of “just go to a schooling show” is further hurting our sport, and the general dismissal by the USDF “inner circle” (I’m not naming any names :lol:) of people’s ideas, complaints, etc, is just driving more people away…

And agree, the arbitrary division of AA and Pro - is arbitrary. Not really doing anything to help anyone!

[strangewings]

When I was in college, I volunteered for a morgan show for a few summers. They had AOTR (amateur owned, trained, and ridden) divisions in their ring classes. I forget if it was HUS, park, or whatever - too many class types to remember after all these years. But anyway, I always thought something like that would be nice for dressage. You could even cut the A off: Owner Trained and Ridden (OTR). Of course you have to decide what you mean by this - maybe you buy a horse with a 1st level record, then maybe you can’t show in OTR below 2nd level - something like that.

[MysticOakRanch]

@strangewings

When I was in college, I volunteered for a morgan show for a few summers. They had AOTR (amateur owned, trained, and ridden) divisions in their ring classes. I forget if it was HUS, park, or whatever - too many class types to remember after all these years. But anyway, I always thought something like that would be nice for dressage. You could even cut the A off: Owner Trained and Ridden (OTR). Of course you have to decide what you mean by this - maybe you buy a horse with a 1st level record, then maybe you can’t show in OTR below 2nd level - something like that.

Amateur Owner To Ride (can still be with a pro trainer the rest of the time). Hunters have that division too. I use to think it was Amateur Trained too! And I still think that would be a cool division - but hard to “police”…

[strangewings]

@MysticOakRanch

Amateur Owner To Ride (can still be with a pro trainer the rest of the time). Hunters have that division too. I use to think it was Amateur Trained too! And I still think that would be a cool division - but hard to “police”…

Shoot! Thanks for the correction!

[MysticOakRanch]

@strangewings

Shoot! Thanks for the correction!

I think it would be a great division!

[lorilu]

AOTR only takes out the AAs who lease a horse… not sure that gets you where you want to go.

[Dutchmare433]

@soloudinhere

Here’s the deal:

Any competitive sport favors those with disposable income. You want to compete the same skills as those on the world stage, it’s not going to be cheap. If I want to be an age group cyclist I would need to be buying $$$ bikes and quitting my job to ride 6+ hours a day training, with nutritionists and physical therapists and physical trainers and traveling for altitude training and all the things that come with participating in a sport at an elite competitive level.

If I only want to do a couple local crits, then my costs are substantially reduced. And, of course, I can always ride my local bike store bike on the local bike path as much as I want. Nobody’s stopping me.

”‹”‹”‹Im going to get flamed for this but the argument that there are so many “nontraditional” horses who are somehow perfect examples of dressage training but getting hammered on scores not match with what is at the shows and I see the scores reflect it. There’s a lot of people who believe they are training correctly and talk a big game about classical dressage and then blame the horse’s inadequacies when in fact they have the same holes that the fancy horse does, or often more. A good friend of mine has a draft horse that is doing all the PSG and getting over 70 at 4th level.

It reflects a lack of people who can produce a horse and an even further lack of people who have the skill to evaluate what they have and truly get the best out of a horse not intended for purpose. Then we blame the sport and the judging as a way to ignore it.

I was reading something the other day posted on a forum in 1996 lamenting that you need gaits too nice for the average horse. We’ve come nowhere in 25 years because the argument is too convenient.

Thanks for posting this. This has been my observation in my region as well. I know and see plenty of people showing non-traditional or non “fancy” breeds through the FEI levels and scoring quite well, even winning. Juniors, pros, and AAs. I’ve also seen (and personally know) my share of riders on fancy warmbloods get scored in the 40s-low 50s when they go into the ring unable to sit the trot, horse with its back dropped and head in the air. I also see warmbloods scoring well when ridden well, and non-traditional horses ridden poorly scoring poorly.

I don’t think it’s reasonable to think that all of the judges, professionals, upper level riders, etc are doing it wrong all the time and still being rewarded/hired/whatever.

[soloudinhere]

Why do people think that rich AAs are somehow stealing the classes from everyone else?

The problem, as I see it (though I am probably a “rich AA” by whatever standard, I have one horse in full training that I bought green broke for $5k, and an income well into the 6 figures) is the shamateur, the working student or unemployed amateur who rides full time, shows professionally owned horses, and wins the 1st level Am and the PSG Am at the same regional championships on different horses. We all know this happens and there’s nothing we can do about it because it’s so difficult to prove. It’s above board, but it’s against the spirit of competition, if that makes sense.

The wealthy amateur with a day job who only gets out to ride two or three days a week isn’t a threat to anybody, no matter how much $ they spent on their horse. It’s just not realistic to pursue dressage in that way and be successful.

[Manni01]

@soloudinhere

Why do people think that rich AAs are somehow stealing the classes from everyone else?

The problem, as I see it (though I am probably a “rich AA” by whatever standard, I have one horse in full training that I bought green broke for $5k, and an income well into the 6 figures) is the shamateur, the working student or unemployed amateur who rides full time, shows professionally owned horses, and wins the 1st level Am and the PSG Am at the same regional championships on different horses. We all know this happens and there’s nothing we can do about it because it’s so difficult to prove. It’s above board, but it’s against the spirit of competition, if that makes sense.

The wealthy amateur with a day job who only gets out to ride two or three days a week isn’t a threat to anybody, no matter how much $ they spent on their horse. It’s just not realistic to pursue dressage in that way and be successful.

Who was trying to blame rich AAs? They are totally fine and they should compete just as everybody else…I would love them to spend some of their money towards keeping their beloved competition clean and affordable for everybody!!
Because in the long run it gets boring if you show all by yourself because nobody else can afford it anymore…
But otherwise they really deserve to be treated like everybody else!!! I agree with you!! In fact I would love to treat every rider exactly as they deserve according to their abilities. Who cares whether they are rich or poor or are a living with riding…

[2tempe]

@Manni01

Who was trying to blame rich AAs? They are totally fine and they should compete just as everybody else…I would love them to spend some of their money towards keeping their beloved competition clean and affordable for everybody!!
Because in the long run it gets boring if you show all by yourself because nobody else can afford it anymore…
But otherwise they really deserve to be treated like everybody else!!! I agree with you!! In fact I would love to treat every rider exactly as they deserve according to their abilities. Who cares whether they are rich or poor or are a living with riding…

Then why do you make so many disparaging remarks about “rich AA’s” ?

[Lucassb]

I find this a fascinating discussion every time it comes up. Anyone that wants to, can do dressage on whatever horse they have (or can borrow, etc.) I do dressage riding around in my backyard. Let’s agree that even HAVING a horse is expensive, but once you have one - you can do as much dressage as you would like.

Now, showing - especially showing at the perceived higher levels/bigger shows - that is where the money becomes a bigger factor.

So is the question really: “How can showing at the higher levels/bigger shows be made more affordable?”

(Oh, and of course the related question is, “How can I WIN at these shows without spending a fortune?”)

I think the nature of those shows is just that they are expensive, plain and simple. The infrastructure, judges, quality of competition, etc all make showing at that level quite pricey. It is what it is, and the show fees themselves are the least of the costs.

There are more affordable options for showing, as pointed out numerous times over the last 19 pages. Schooling shows are the most obvious answer - but those are perceived as not as desirable as shows with the big ratings/fancy venues. (And that seems to be true even when schooling shows are held at the same facilities, curiously enough.)

Most sports, at the higher levels, are very expensive. I don’t think there is a way around that.

[xQHDQ]

By “Rich AAs” who is everyone talking about? There’s only one rich amateur that I know of who is beating the pros.
All the other rich amateurs I know can afford nice horses and good training but work full time and can’t ride enough to be competitive. It’s all a trade-off.

[2tempe]

@xQHDQ

By “Rich AAs” who is everyone talking about? There’s only one rich amateur that I know of who is beating the pros.
All the other rich amateurs I know can afford nice horses and good training but work full time and can’t ride enough to be competitive. It’s all a trade-off.

Or now have the time but the body is old enough that it doesn’t always want to cooperate…:yes: I ride better now than I ever have but will not match how I might have been if I had done this discipline in my 30’s instead of other alternatives.

[Manni01]

@2tempe

Then why do you make so many disparaging remarks about “rich AA’s” ?

Really? I did?? I think they should have the same chances as everybody else… I don’t like it that showing rated is too expensive for the majority of riders (more then once a year)
Also I don’t like that there no way for not so rich AAs to support their hobby by making a few bucks in the horse industry.

[Lucassb]

@Manni01

Snip
Also I don’t like that there no way for not so rich AAs to support their hobby by making a few bucks in the horse industry.

The reason that that isn’t possible is because of the cheaters - the people who claimed they were “just the barn’s book keeper” or whatever that in actuality were being paid to ride and train for their trainer/bosses.

The folks who could legitimately just teach some up down lessons or whatever to defray expenses unfortunately get caught up in that situation, and therefore it was determined that there had to be a bright line around not allowing remuneration - including all the proxies for that like “free boarding,” etc.

[soloudinhere]

Wait, are we really arguing that rich amateurs should sponsor shows/fees for the “less fortunate?”

We’ve established that sponsorship of shows generally defrays the costs of awards/prizes. Nobody is going to front the fees for the venue, unless, of course, they own the venue, which is actually the case for a lot of local recognized shows that local pros put on at their facilities, that they either own or are often owned by wealthy amateur benefactors.

I’ve paid for clinics, donated my facility, I’ve sponsored classes at shows, I’ve owned horses for young professionals. To do all that, and then still be accused of “not supporting dressage” by paying show fees and membership fees and everything else, because someone else thinks it should be cheaper for them - damn, no wonder people just want to ride and show and stay out of it.

[lorilu]

@Manni01

Really? I did?? I think they should have the same chances as everybody else… I don’t like it that showing rated is too expensive for the majority of riders (more then once a year)
Also I don’t like that there no way for not so rich AAs to support their hobby by making a few bucks in the horse industry.

So your real complaint is the definition of AA. Right now, as @Lucassb states above, there is a “bright line” separating AAs out from everyone else (think of a group within a group of Adults…). I agree it hurts the small-time up down trainers… but I have no ideas for another definition. Could you suggest an easily defined, easily enforced definition?

(and of course there are horse industry professions that do not impact your AA status, such as working in a tack or feed store, various professional careers such as vet or farrier, judging… boarding horses, and I think even trailering horses. Probably braiding at shows is OK too. Probably more if I really think about it. Just not anything that involves riding or training or teaching a rider or their horse for pay or remuneration.

[Janet]

Also I don’t like that there no way for not so rich AAs to support their hobby by making a few bucks in the horse industry.

You can make PLENTY of bucks"in the horse industry" as long as you are not riding,training, showing or teaching for the person paying you.

Working in a tack or feed store
Judging,or being a steward or TD
Being a show secretary or show manager
Running a boarding stable
Being a groom
Being a vet or blacksmith
Writing horse books or horse articles

are all ways to make a “few bucks in the horse industry” without losing your amateur status.

[skydy]

@Janet

You can make PLENTY of bucks"in the horse industry" as long as you are not riding,training, showing or teaching for the person paying you.

Working in a tack or feed store
Judging,or being a steward or TD
Being a show secretary or show manager
Running a boarding stable
Being a groom
Being a vet or blacksmith
Writing horse books or horse articles

are all ways to make a “few bucks in the horse industry” without losing your amateur status.

You can breed and sell horses as well.

[Cowgirl]

For me, the issue is the multiple of crazy association dues and fees: USEF, USDF, GMO, Breed Organization, horse recording fees, drug fees, blah blah blah. The annual total is more than my annual professional license fee to continue to work my job. It’s ridiculous. Why are there so many organizations involved?

I honestly don’t mind the breed association fees–they are optional (as well as cheaper, especially if you don’t breed) and in my experience (the organization I was involved with) give better annual prizes than any other organization.

I appreciate my local GMO. I actually wouldn’t mind paying them a club fee if they didn’t have to send money on to another organization that I have to join as well to be eligible for programs.

The USEF/USDF thing really bugs me. Why can’t they give you a discount if you join both?

And why are these organizations feeding off of the horse shows? Shouldn’t all their services be included in your membership?