So what can be done to make Dressage more affordable?

[2tempe]

Thinking about show fees - the show manager only has control over some of the costs: for starters, the facility cost is set by owner of the facility. Based on how many rings are needed, how much stabling, what type, related maintenance during show (ring dragging, watering, garbage and manure pick up etc. In my area there are 3-4 commonly used locations, and there differences. Some allow trailer in and charge small amount. One requires a stall. But lets say $125 for the Fri-Sun.
$125 stabling
$25ish for USEF/DF drug testing
$15 for qualifying rides for regionals if you want.
So: You have $150-$200 here that is beyond show manager’s control.

Office fees are set by show manager. Ours run $45.
Class fees set by show manager - ours avg. $50 (slightly less for 4th and below, slightly more for PSG and above.

So if I enter two classes in a weekend, about 1/2 of the costs are directly controllable by manager, the other 1/2 driven by outside forces.
If you show at only places where you can trailer in - big chunk of savings. If you show at schooling shows, also big savings, plus lower class fees.

[Equibrit]

Non profits typically invest “profits” and generate revenue for operating expenses.
In the example linked (2015) USET is sitting on $12.5 million in investments.

[lorilu]

@MorganSercu

2015 USDF Stephen Hienzsch was paid $158,372 + $34,797 in compensation.

2018 USET
Bonnie Jenkins $291,723 + $61,573
Mark Piwor $219,618 + $63,603
James Wolf $157,292 + $37,940

Again, they earn it, but clearly no matter how much they love it, they don’t do it for free.

This should link to a 2017 filing:
https://www.causeiq.com/organizations/view_990/237373705/fc173b2316714b6c985a2e7dbf647ba6

Considering the size of the organization they head up those figures are not outlandish at all.

[MorganSercu]

@lorilu

Considering the size of the organization they head up those figures are not outlandish at all.

I agree. I never said those salaries were outlandish. I did say they are well-compensated/don’t do it for free.

[Manni01]

@AnastasiaBeaverhousen

I meant the shows that have corporate sponsors and that attract the 1% or the upper middle class. who can afford that kind of lifestyle.

Competitive dressage falls into that category where
“If you to have to ask how much it is you cant afford it.”

if a show has a coporate sponsor, does it make showing for the competitor cheaper?

[AnastasiaBeaverhousen]

@Manni01

if a show has a coporate sponsor, does it make showing for the competitor cheaper?

No.
it means that shows that have corporate sponsors have a better profit margin

[Manni01]

@AnastasiaBeaverhousen

No.
it means that shows that have corporate sponsors have a better profit margin

That’s what I figured and that’s part of the problem… that is why these sponsors should sponsor money prizes for the classes…

what if a rider would not only get a ribbon but also 30 or 40 dollars or more depending on the level and the placing…wouldnt that be nice??

And I am sure riders would remember sponsors better if they would receive something from them…so more effective sponsoring…

[AnastasiaBeaverhousen]

@Manni01

That’s what I figured and that’s part of the problem… that is why these sponsors should sponsor money prizes for the classes…

what if a rider would not only get a ribbon but also 30 or 40 dollars or more depending on the level and the placing…wouldnt that be nice??

And I am sure riders would remember sponsors better if they would receive something from them…so more effective sponsoring…

Manni01,

Compete in the open classes.

The difference between. Amateur and Professional is not a matter of skill and talent.

An amateur cant make money riding or training someone else’s horses . That’s it.

You ought to try it once, just to see how you measure up. Dont assume because they are pros you wont have a chance.

I’ve seen quite a few dressage riders who were much better riders than their instructors. And in some cases knew more, too.

[Manni01]

@AnastasiaBeaverhousen

Manni01,

Compete in the open classes.

The difference between. Amateur and Professional is not a matter of skill and talent.

An amateur cant make money riding or training someone else’s horses . That’s it.

You ought to try it once, just to see how you measure up. Dont assume because they are pros you wont have a chance.

I’ve seen quite a few dressage riders who were much better riders than their instructors. And in some cases knew more, too.

Another rule in the US which was created exclusively to protect rich AAs… it even protects them against poor AAs… not only against pros…😱😱

And you don’t need to tell me what I should do…Thank you very much I know you mean well, but I believe I know what I am doing…

[soloudinhere]

Here’s the deal:

Any competitive sport favors those with disposable income. You want to compete the same skills as those on the world stage, it’s not going to be cheap. If I want to be an age group cyclist I would need to be buying $$$ bikes and quitting my job to ride 6+ hours a day training, with nutritionists and physical therapists and physical trainers and traveling for altitude training and all the things that come with participating in a sport at an elite competitive level.

If I only want to do a couple local crits, then my costs are substantially reduced. And, of course, I can always ride my local bike store bike on the local bike path as much as I want. Nobody’s stopping me.

”‹”‹”‹Im going to get flamed for this but the argument that there are so many “nontraditional” horses who are somehow perfect examples of dressage training but getting hammered on scores not match with what is at the shows and I see the scores reflect it. There’s a lot of people who believe they are training correctly and talk a big game about classical dressage and then blame the horse’s inadequacies when in fact they have the same holes that the fancy horse does, or often more. A good friend of mine has a draft horse that is doing all the PSG and getting over 70 at 4th level.

It reflects a lack of people who can produce a horse and an even further lack of people who have the skill to evaluate what they have and truly get the best out of a horse not intended for purpose. Then we blame the sport and the judging as a way to ignore it.

I was reading something the other day posted on a forum in 1996 lamenting that you need gaits too nice for the average horse. We’ve come nowhere in 25 years because the argument is too convenient.

[AnastasiaBeaverhousen]

@Manni01

Another rule in the US which was created exclusively to protect rich AAs… it even protects them against poor AAs… not only against pros…😱😱

And you don’t need to tell me what I should do…Thank you very much I know you mean well, but I believe I know what I am doing…

I’m not sure why you think wealthy AAs need protecting from poor AAs . Or the pros for that matter.

I wasnt trying to tell you what to do.
You keep posting that you want ribbons and money.
So I suggested riding in open classes where you can have both.

If you dont want to then dont.
”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹

[Manni01]

@AnastasiaBeaverhousen

I’m not sure why you think wealthy AAs need protecting from poor AAs . Or the pros for that matter.

I wasnt trying to tell you what to do.
You keep posting that you want ribbons and money.
So I suggested riding in open classes where you can have both.

If you dont want to then dont.

In dressage you don’t earn money for placing in open classes.
I made a recommendation how to make dressage more affordable…And I am talking about showing in rated shows. Not more and not less…

[2tempe]

@Manni01

That’s what I figured and that’s part of the problem… that is why these sponsors should sponsor money prizes for the classes…

what if a rider would not only get a ribbon but also 30 or 40 dollars or more depending on the level and the placing…wouldnt that be nice??

And I am sure riders would remember sponsors better if they would receive something from them…so more effective sponsoring…

I agree that it would be nice to get a few $ back. No argument there! One of the reasons its so hard to get sponsors, is that giving money to sponsor something at a horse show is not tax deductible as a contribution. Corporations have to do it out of a marketing budget and its not much bang for the buck…except probably in Wellington during the season.

Our shows seem to give out “stuff” for high point at various levels - but really who among us needs more stuff! I’d rather have a small check than another saddle pad or wine glass or tote box or whatever.

[exvet]

I’ve earned money for placements in open shows (jackpot classes), jumper shows, breed shows such as Arabian shows and even a prix st. george class that I rode in one recognized USDF/USEF dressage show perhaps 8 or 9 years ago. It would be nice to see if such an idea or model could be routinely used in dressage shows. I am right there with many of the complaining ammies about the expense of shows etc; however, I would be willing to spend $5 or $10 more a class if it were used towards a jackpot for placings. I realize ‘that’ amount doesn’t necessarily equate for much once you start divvying things up; but, it might promote better attendance, I dunno. It also might foster more interest if you’re gas would be paid for should you place/win. While I think showing is always going to be ‘expensive’ and a decision for each of us as to how to manage what disposable income we have, I find it nice to be able to say that my efforts/interests/participation at least paid for the class fee or gas or whatever. It’s a rationalization that really has no bearing but it still makes it a little easier to swallow, say at the end of the year when I have to face what I spent on x,y, z… BTW while It doesn’t and shouldn’t really matter, I am a card carrying amateur who shows/competes open - I see very little difference in ranking, scoring or much of anything else.

[lorilu]

@Manni01

Another rule in the US which was created exclusively to protect rich AAs… it even protects them against poor AAs… not only against pros…😱😱
…

To “protect” rich AAs?? really? Pros ride their client’s horses - some of which aren’t much to be frank. And both rich AND POOR AAs have Nice, and not-so-nice horses.
I suppose then you are not in favor of a separate show organization only for AAs? Unless, of course, you can somehow separate the “rich” AAs from the “poor” AAs.
How to do that? Sale price of horse? (what if you bought a youngster for a low price and brought him along??) Presence of a trainer? (how many lessons a month are “permitted” for you to be a "poor"AA? Maybe the price of the trainer? WHat then is a "rich AAs’ trainer"s price? )

illogical at best.

[Manni01]

@2tempe

I agree that it would be nice to get a few $ back. No argument there! One of the reasons its so hard to get sponsors, is that giving money to sponsor something at a horse show is not tax deductible as a contribution. Corporations have to do it out of a marketing budget and its not much bang for the buck…except probably in Wellington during the season.

Our shows seem to give out “stuff” for high point at various levels - but really who among us needs more stuff! I’d rather have a small check than another saddle pad or wine glass or tote box or whatever.

Thank you!!!

[MysticOakRanch]

@lorilu

To “protect” rich AAs?? really? Pros ride their client’s horses - some of which aren’t much to be frank. And both rich AND POOR AAs have Nice, and not-so-nice horses.
I suppose then you are not in favor of a separate show organization only for AAs? Unless, of course, you can somehow separate the “rich” AAs from the “poor” AAs.
How to do that? Sale price of horse? (what if you bought a youngster for a low price and brought him along??) Presence of a trainer? (how many lessons a month are “permitted” for you to be a "poor"AA? Maybe the price of the trainer? WHat then is a "rich AAs’ trainer"s price? )

illogical at best.

How about, We all need to submit our income taxes with our annual membership dues?

BTW, just kidding in case anyone thinks I’m serious:D

[Manni01]

@lorilu

To “protect” rich AAs?? really? Pros ride their client’s horses - some of which aren’t much to be frank. And both rich AND POOR AAs have Nice, and not-so-nice horses.
I suppose then you are not in favor of a separate show organization only for AAs? Unless, of course, you can somehow separate the “rich” AAs from the “poor” AAs.
How to do that? Sale price of horse? (what if you bought a youngster for a low price and brought him along??) Presence of a trainer? (how many lessons a month are “permitted” for you to be a "poor"AA? Maybe the price of the trainer? WHat then is a "rich AAs’ trainer"s price? )

illogical at best.

Ok, I know that you will defend the current system by all means… You are IMO one of the persons which feels whatever little power the organization has given to them and enjoys it… No offense, but that’s what I get from what you write…
I am not in favor of a new organization at all… I think that’s a bad idea… You favor it maybe because you think it will not be successful anyhow and it will keep the naysayers busy…
Its it not possible to found an Organisation just for AAs and I don’t see any use in it anyhow… There are not enough riders in Dressage to be cut in half… And the rich AAs will never leave the current system anyhow… why should they…
So basically this potentially new Organisation would be something like schooling shows… Nothing I would support to create new… We have them already…

And of course all you think about is money…

It would be very easy to separate the classes if you don’t have the separation for AAs and Pros… You could look at the previous scores the riders earned in the past and then you could make a split at any given score and everybody who has an average above the split will have to compete in the more advanced class… the others go the lower division… I am sure it is possible to work out something…
YOu could also earn points… like every time you earn a specific score…
Or somebody suggested you should look at what level the rider competed in the past…

There are many many possibilities… None of them are perfect but everything is better then the money based model there is now…

[MysticOakRanch]

@Manni01

Ok, I know that you will defend the current system by all means… You are IMO one of the persons which feels whatever little power the organization has given to them and enjoys it… No offense, but that’s what I get from what you write…
I am not in favor of a new organization at all… I think that’s a bad idea… You favor it maybe because you think it will not be successful anyhow and it will keep the naysayers busy…
Its it not possible to found an Organisation just for AAs and I don’t see any use in it anyhow… There are not enough riders in Dressage to be cut in half… And the rich AAs will never leave the current system anyhow… why should they…
So basically this potentially new Organisation would be something like schooling shows… Nothing I would support to create new… We have them already…

And of course all you think about is money…

It would be very easy to separate the classes if you don’t have the separation for AAs and Pros… You could look at the previous scores the riders earned in the past and then you could make a split at any given score and everybody who has an average above the split will have to compete in the more advanced class… the others go the lower division… I am sure it is possible to work out something…
YOu could also earn points… like every time you earn a specific score…
Or somebody suggested you should look at what level the rider competed in the past…

There are many many possibilities… None of them are perfect but everything is better then the money based model there is now…

Manni, this may knock you off your feet - but I pretty much agree. Especially on creating a new organization - no, no, no, that is not the answer. United we grow, divided we shrivel up and die. And the LAST thing we need is MORE dues to pay!

[Manni01]

@MysticOakRanch

Manni, this may knock you off your feet - but I pretty much agree. Especially on creating a new organization - no, no, no, that is not the answer. United we grow, divided we shrivel up and die. And the LAST thing we need is MORE dues to pay!

Somehow I sense that things are changing a little… I have had my opinion for some years now and I remember how I was bashed for it in the beginning.
Very very glad that people start to see the point that overpriced shows really don’t improve the quality of showing…And I hope that they are not content to be placed in the schooling show department, which Lorilu promotes… This is only profitable for USDF because they get most of the fees from the GMOs and they leave all the work for the GMO chapters…