True. But somewhere someone is making a profit otherwise they wouldnt do it.
I have been peripherally involved in show planning. Yes, it is expensive. But no one âmakes a profitâ.
Any excess moneys above and beyond all the fees described by @Mondo go back into the club treasury to be used as cash to fund the next yearâs show or to cover and subsidize activities that DONâT make a profit.
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âBut somewhere someone is making a profit otherwise they wouldnât do it.â USEF and USDF are both non-profit. They arenât doing it for the money. The judge is working, so yeah, they have to be paid. Itâs their job. The ribbon and trophy manufacturers are making a profit. The insurance companies are making a profit. The venue renting out their facility is making a profit. That is generally what businesses do. Hosting a competition costs a lot of money. Those making a profit from those costs (which get passed on to the competitors) are not areas where we as competitors can make a change.
Letâs think about something here. Costs go up. Continually. When I bought my first house in 1980, it was a small house with a huge backyard. New construction. Cost me $60,000. My mother was horrified at my payment at the time. Guess what? Today, where I live, you can buy a 1 bedroom condo for $350,000., thatâs about it. If you donât qualify for $500k, you are a renter. My first car was a used Subaru. I wonât tell you what year it was, but it was only a few years old. I paid $1,000 for it. You know how much cars cost now. Today that car would be $25,000. The cost of everything has increased dramatically, but salaries have stayed relatively static.
The US is all about money. You can get political and argue the merits/evils of Capitalism all you want. But it is what it is. I havenât shown in 20 years. Because of cost. Because I am a professional and canât afford a professional caliber horse. I found a very talented horse for 1/10th of his value last summer. I couldnât figure out why he hadnât been shown in the US, even though heâd been imported 11 years ago. Then I found out. (See my Worldâs Most Herdbound Horse) thread. So, I may be one of the lucky few who can fix his âquirksâ and show him or I may not. Weâll see after we emerge from this COVID stuff. So I am right there with you on the costs issue, and Iâm not an AA. But I donât think you are going to see the expense decrease for some time, if ever.
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Without getting too deep, I I was thinking of the larger shows and venues. I know local shows couldnt make a profit.
But that is not the purpose.
No, they do it anyway, and at a loss. And/or they get it underwritten by sponsors and supporters, just enough so that it can continue at break even.
Many shows are produced by nonprofit GMOs and clubs. Non-profit is right there in the name-- turning a profit is not an expectation.
The shows donât make money. People do them anyway. All the time, repeatedly and annually at a loss, for years.
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No they donât either. The larger shows have bigger underwriters, because the same people who own the horses that compete in them have pockets deep enough to kick in big checks toward keeping the show operating.
Look a the banners hanging around the arena at Global in Wellington. Look at the program page for Dressage at Devon, or the home page for the Del Mar National. The Companies and farm names represented nearly always coincide with the people who have horses being ridden in the shows, often by the biggest names.
They arenât expecting to make money. Theyâre expecting to continue to have another opportunity, or continuing opportunity, at which their horses can compete and-- they hope-- win something.
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Well, in CA, many (most) shows are run by professionals. They DO make a profit. Sponsorship adds to that profit. We donât see many shows run by nonprofits (and those that do, do it for profit. As a fundraiser. You CAN make profit in a nonprofit, perfectly legal).
CDIs have a harder time making a profit because of the added costs, especially multiple judges co-judging the classes. Those judges all must come from different countries, so travel costs are higher too. But most CDIs are run by professional show managers with the intent of making money.
Having said that, if they couldnât make money, no one would run shows. USEF has made it so complicated that volunteers tend to bow out. So, you canât really eliminate the profit or you eliminate the show. The biggest cost of showing is your horse, and training. Next biggest is probably travel cost. If you can show locally and eliminate hotel, stabling, and a long haul, you are now down to the actual entry fees and membership costs.
When assessing the cost of showing, you need to look at WHICH component you are hoping to cut. Travel costs? Maybe work with your GMO to host a local show. Membership costs? I wish we could take USEF or DF out of the picture. But that only saves about $75 annually. Entry fees? Maybe more sponsors could help with that. Or getting USEF to relax on show rules and paperwork so volunteers might be willing to run shows. But reality is, other then hotel and stabling, we arenât going to save a whole lot. Ă°ĆžËÂŁ. Maybe $50/-100person per show? I estimate the profit is the office fee plus about $10/class.
I have the luxury of local shows. Big shows, even a CDI or two, as well as smaller one and two ring shows in a 30 mile radius. So I donât need to rent a stall and get a hotel room. In my annual horse budget, the biggest cost is just maintaining my horse! While I have shows close by which saves me money, I also pay a lot more for horse keeping because of where I live. Even if shows were $100 less, it wouldnât make a dent in my horse budget. So Iâm really curious, where would people want to see actual cost cutting?
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Well you make it sound like they sacrifice everything for dressage, They might not do it for money, But i am sure there is a factor which is driving them and that is power⊠to lead a big organisation like USDF or USEF is something âŠ
I appreciate your comments, and agree, but my comment isnât about me as an individual (though obviously I do have those concerns for myself as well).
I have a broad enough range of experience doing dressage at a âgrassrootsâ level across the US to feel like I have some sense about what is ânormalâ. You are right that those people are out there, but the point is they are less common than they (IMO) could be/should be and US dressage would be better off if it were more common.
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Being a non-profit doesnât mean there is no profit generated or that people arenât getting paid. Some are paid quite handsomely.
[URL=âhttps://www.usdf.org/about/about-usdf/financials/â]https://www.usdf.org/about/about-usdf/financials/
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âquite handsomelyâ? those values are for the entire department. (I was looking at the usdf budget pages.
Many shows here in FL are run by two or three companies - Southeast Horse Shows, Orlando Dressage, and Wellington Dressage (I may be wrong about that name). I have shown at shows managed by all three, and I really dont think they are raking in the profit dollarsâŠ
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YOu have obviously never met George Williams (former USEF Pres) or Lisa Gorretta, current president. I really do not see them as âseeking powerâ. They are in it for the betterment of the sport.
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Go to section VII, the salaries for 49 - 51 (USET). They are not out of line for the money raised & administered but donât kid yourself, they are well paid. The total salaries are listed for the employees. The organization has a healthy bottom line.
There is nothing wrong with that, but letâs not kid ourselves that the organization is hurting for money. It is a big business.
USDFâs 990 is from 2015. That is woefully dated.
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The question that Annabeaverhousen brought up was whether dressage SHOWS make money. She suggested nobody would be putting on SHOWS if the SHOWS donât turn a profit.
They usually donât. And the people putting them on usually donât care, they aim to cover expenses.
How that prompted a whole discussion of whether the governing dressage organizations or the people in them seek power, or get paid, or turn profits, is not on me.
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I donât know why the USDF & USET financials are linked in my earlier post. Let me try again.
https://www.uset.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/2018-Federal-Form-990.pdf
2015 USDF Stephen Hienzsch was paid $158,372 + $34,797 in compensation.
2018 USET
Bonnie Jenkins $291,723 + $61,573
Mark Piwor $219,618 + $63,603
James Wolf $157,292 + $37,940
Again, they earn it, but clearly no matter how much they love it, they donât do it for free.
This should link to a 2017 filing:
https://www.causeiq.com/organizations/view_990/237373705/fc173b2316714b6c985a2e7dbf647ba6
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Actually,
The original question was why are show fees so high?
Show fees are set by show management.
I said someone makes a profit otherwise why do it?
I was thinking of FEI levels when I wrote that. I know GMO shows do not make a profit.
It is an interesting side bar topic because imo membership fees are not that high when you compare that with how much horse owners spend just to keep a horse.
However, if show management wont reduce fees because they cant put on the kind of shows that people expect, then you cant really reduce the costs there either,
So, what is poor AA to do?
- Get another job
- Marry into wealth
- Put it all on plastic
- Start a GoFundMe
- Dont show any more.
- Rob a bank *
- Okay, dont rob a bank. That would be criminal.
- Win the Lottery (Hey. It could happen)
Dressage was originally like any other equine sport ,
for royalty and the landed gentry.
Dressage has actually become affordable and much more accessible when you back at its early history.
However. the Dressage for the rest of us has come and gone. I dont think it will come around again .
The kind of financial situation with high credit limits for everybody back in the day is gone too.
Le sigh
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When you are talking about FEI levels, do you mean CDIs? There are FEI classes at national shows, ie at all of the local/GMO shows. You pay more per class for an FEI test, because they require 2 judges (aside from at Level 1 shows, which only require a judge at C).
CDIs make even less money than national shows and usually piggyback off of national shows to be held at all.
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I meant the shows that have corporate sponsors and that attract the 1% or the upper middle class. who can afford that kind of lifestyle.
Competitive dressage falls into that category where
âIf you to have to ask how much it is you cant afford it.â
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Really⊠I have been driving quite a lot lately so I was looking for podcasts to listen to⊠i found a dressage one I was interested in⊠It was an Interview with George Williams, And Sorry I stopped listeneing after 5 min⊠During this time the interviewer was only listing the titles of George WilliamsâŠ
for somebody only working for the betterment of the sport it was quite impressive and I gave up on the podcastâŠ
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