The question I underlined gets to the heart of this topic: Because the quality of that movement is evident before the horse has been trained at all and is very expensive.
The goal of this thread or topic was to put dressage financially within reach of a larger swath of society. If you think they ought to pay to show and lose because they didn’t right a large enough check for the raw material, you aren’t helping to solve the problem.
Hazarding a guess - only dressage advertises itself as being able to put a good foundation on any horse so it can perform still better in other areas.
It is how the Dance Theatre of Harlem started. Asking kids playing basketball if they wanted to learn how to jump higher. A much more interesting premise than “wanna pull on some tights and learn how to dance magnificently?”. A pretty hard sell to most boys.
“The Dance Theatre of Harlem School offers training to more than 1,000 young people annually with its community program called Dancing Through Barriers, open to any child who wants to study dance. The company’s Dancing Through Barriers Ensemble does outreach throughout the US. It accepts pre-school children up to senior citizens.”
Horse people are losing ground. Eating our seed corn and dismissing AA concerns isn’t going to grow the base. Maybe USDF doesn’t want to see growth in membership as long as enough people can afford to spend more money. But eventually a spinning top loses momentum and falls over.
School horses and schooling shows seem to be lacking in general in dressage. I came up as a kid through a hunter jumper barn. I never really chose the discipline. I wanted to ride from the time I can remember and when my mother went looking for a lesson program, that’s what was available here. There was no dressage barn with lesson horses and a lesson program. I would have needed to have my own horse, and what family that isn’t already in horses goes and buys a kid a horse from the beginning?
As far as the shows, from an outsider, I don’t get excited watching the same tests over and over and over. I live for the freestyles. I would be more excited to watch if there were as suggested earlier in the thread, more variety in the tests, or even a “surprise, here’s the test of the day” situation. Take hunter/jumper as an example, there are only so many elements to a course, but the particular course isn’t revealed until you’re at the show. There is an element of being able to ride that course on that day. OR, maybe like skating that was mentioned, here are all the elements that need to be shown and everyone does a freestyle.
I also get excited when I see an “off breed” aka non WB in dressage, but that seems to be rare these days. It seems like we’ve exchanged “correct gaits” for extravagant gaits and horses that are purpose bred to produce those. I get that there is a training component and the talent to ride those gaits, but I feel like there should be a separate division for those that don’t have that advantage.
And it’s true. Two quotes from Lynn Palm (quarter horse legend) paraphrased:
Dressage is good for all horses, not all horses are good for dressage
The first two years of training for any horse should be based on dressage, then you’ll know what they can specialize in
I started dressage with my AQHA all-around horse. After a couple of years of dressage, I went to an AQHA show on a whim and we were much more successful than previously both in his overall movement, adjustability, lead changes, and our partnership. Note this was not a small show, it was in So Cal and we won a 20 horse WP class and a 25 horse Trail class in addition being All Around Amateur for the show and All Around Western Amateur. We were 2nd in the English Division despite winning the HUS and HSE classes because he never liked to jump and Hunter Hack was a disaster.
OK, but the reality is that a small percentage of the population dances too. Even fewer make a living at it.
Yes, frankly, all of the arts are losing ground. I consider dressage, done properly an art. This is why I keep saying we are the PTB and encouraging people to be the change they want to see. Throwing ideas and complaints around on the internet are entertaining but an ineffective change mechanism.
Sorry if I’m not clear.
It all comes down to goals.
Some amateurs are ambitious. They want to compete and they want tangible rewards for their efforts, and investment physical and financial and emotional. i,e. Ribbons, medals, awards, recognition from their peer group.
Some amateurs want to move up the levels and compete because they want an “unbiased” evaluation of their training.
Some ride dressage just because they like it and dont want to compete at all.
You dont have to have a warm blood , a BNT to compete but as it stands right now, if you want to win at the higher levels you do have to.
I’ve know people who started out with non bred horses QH and TB because America is the land of success and if you can dream it you can achieve it and everybody loves a Cinderella story.
After a few shows when it became clear they weren’t going to be Cinderella , they either gave up competing or traded up and got a horse they could win on.
Dressage is about training and creating a harmonious relationship between horse and rider.
Upper level Dressage competitions have become a way for WB breeders to attract deep pocket buyers.
This is no different from the QH and Western Pleasure.
Once people started competing , it changed everything.
Western Pleasure is all about gaits.
Walk, jog lope . And how submissive the horse is.
Some judge decided that peanut rolling and a 4 beat lope were the way to go.
”‹ Western Pleasure became about expensive matching outfits , and bling on the bridle and saddle .
And finding a trainer to teach your horse how to do the Western Pleasure Shuffle and Roll because that’s what wins.
But you don’t have to have a QH to ride Western Pleasure.
Gait scores are all about training , but they dont always reflect training.
I don’t disagree. I have a background in ballet and many serious dancers at least learn the basics. They may not specialize in it though. Whether it is due to inclination, cost or the rampant racism is a different discussion. Racism played a HUGE role not very long ago and it exists now too.
I don’t believe many QH, Saddlebred, Morgan owners expect to compete at FEI levels. But if they don’t feel or perceive getting a fair shot at a decent score with a solidly trained non-WB through at least Second or Third level they are going to vote with their wallets. It is one thing not to win a ribbon. It is quite another to feel as though a judge isn’t inclined to pay attention to and score the horse in front of them. If demonstrating mastery of basics isn’t recognized over quality of gaits it sucks a lot of joy out of the event. No one thinks showing is going to be cheap. Horses aren’t cheap. But when it doesn’t come across as accessible and of value to all then membership is going to decline.
Obviously Western Dressage is catching on. Why? What can the organization learn and apply within USDF?
If you want to win at higher levels of competition at anything, you need the right “equipment” and training. This is not unique to equestrian sport.
I’m too tall, not to mention lazy and fat, to be a gymnast. Physics is NOT on my side for that sport. I don’t think it’s unfair.
Anyone can learn dressage and go to dressage shows and work towards medals. If all they want to do is “win” then they need to invest in what it takes or change sports. I finished up my silver medal being dead last in both of my PSG classes at one show, still got the scores for my silver. I was over the moon, not crying about the color of my ribbons.
Any adult wanting to live a Cinderella story is going to have a tough time in life in general. I admire people who work hard; people who have to win all the time, not so much. Also, I’m compelled to point out that Cinderella herself didn’t do much of anything to get out her situation other than clean up well relying instead on her fairy godmother and the prince.
Hilda Gurney’s Olympic mount Keen was a TB. She still has an exceptional work ethic. Be like Hilda. Live a Hilda story.
Yes, they do. Both good and bad training and riding too are reflected in the gaits. I’ve scribed where the same horse got gait scores of 6 and 8. Same test, different riders. (AA and trainer).
What is true is that good training can improve gaits, but is not going to completely overcome poor conformation or general unsoundness.
This, the bolded text, is a different problem. Competitors can file complaints about these judges and should do so.
After thinking about this topic, I had to wonder if people read the directives on dressage tests. Mastery of the basics is recognized; things like obedience, accuracy of figures, submission. Granted gaits are a big part and the other things like accuracy of figures are modifiers. True that the judging criteria uses WB movement as the standard. There has to be some standard or judging would be even more subjective.
I’m getting the feeling that people want something like the Best of Show competitions at dog shows where each individual is judged against their breed standard. I don’t know if that’s possible other than at breed shows.
I don’t know but that may be part of it. I suspect we agree with one another and are coming at it from slightly different angles.
It is odd to me that WB would be used as the standard when they are not historically viewed as the horses who showcased or embodied dressage. I’m thinking Lippizaners, as an example of a breed many people would recognize and associate with dressage.
I think the tide has changed and now the WB is seen as the standard. I think that’s dead wrong to compare every horse’s gait to the purpose bred WB gait. Each horse should be judged against that horse’s natural gait, not a WB’s natural gait. I’m not sure if I’m communicating that the best way… but hopefully it makes sense.
I agree with you, but I suspect we are outliers. Meanwhile, take care.
THIS^^^^
TPTB listen??? Maybe when pigs fly… I would not hold my breath. Recall that TPTB did not listen to the USDF BOG recommendation to rescind the 63% MFS Qualifying score?
Keen would never win in this day and age….ergo, Hilda Gurney would be just a retired school teacher instead of an Olympic equestrian.
Ah the perils of taking things out of context; I wasn’t talking about winning. In fact, the post this quote was taken from differentiated between the desire to win and the desire to learn dressage and the requirement for hard work.
I don’t take anything away from Ms Gurney who worked as a teacher while working with Keen.
However, the point is that Keen, a Thoroughbred, would not win in this day and age, let alone take its rider to the Olympics…regardless of how hard that rider worked.
The Lippizan people didn’t write the FEI Judging Handbook. I’m pretty sure the Germans were the primary authors 
And thus why Germanic WB’s rule the roost…
How many successful horses from that era would be on Olympic teams today? Probably few to none. It’s called evolution of the sport.
The point is that instead of bemoaning lack of funds and access to training, do what Hilda did (as you point out she did it as an amateur working a day job) work with the horse you have, and figure out a way to get the training. Make it happen, don’t sit around waiting for either a fairy godmother or prince. Also accept the realities of your horse’s limitations; they don’t care if they win ribbons.
Yep, those that make the rules…
This is where disagree…it is called “evolution of judging”…that tilted toward the WB.
It is called the German Breeder Marketing Machine having an agenda after WWII to place their product that skewed the judging to emphasize the qualities (eg., gaits) that their breeders programs were producing.
The rules haven’t changed that much…it is the directives given to the judges (to include gaits) that morphed what used to be a test of the horse’s training…to what is now essentially a materiale class.
Yup…see above.
I can’t speak for Ms Gurney, but I wonder how long she (or anyone) would have persevered if she wasn’t winning.
Thank you! This is exactly what I was trying to convey. But you did it much better than I.
I did some research and I read the Judges Glossary of Dressage Terms and also looked over the latest test for USDF levels.
I’d like to clarify some of my previous posts about gaits.
If you look at each test at the FEI level some movements have a coefficient. But not every movement has a coefficient. The directives do address gaits at each movement. But the objective is
to judge the purity and quality of the gait as it applies to how well that movement is performed.
A horse can have naturally correct and pure gaits but the movement is also scored on how well it is performed.
”‹
The gaits should be judged by the standard of the test. Not against WWAWBD.
IMO Gaits are a function of training but they dont always reflect training.
Correct conformation is the root of correct gaits.
Correct schooling can improve gaits to a degree .
(That’s what dressage is. ) but it cannot replace what isn’t there.
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