It’s perfectly fine to have differences of opinion and perspective. It’s so much more interesting than when all agree, and provides opportunities to think of things in new ways.
Regarding how long Hilda or anyone would persevere if they don’t win, I think that comes down to what’s important to that individual; winning or the process. Hilda bought Keen specifically to be a dressage horse, if it hadn’t panned out, I suspect she would have persevered, just not with that horse. That’s quite different than expecting the system to change to accommodate your (not you literally) horse.
I actually dont have much of an issue with flashy gaits being rewarded at the upper levels. It is, as was pointed out, using the lower levels as a materiale class that I find the larger issue.
Most AAs of limited means are not going to ride at the highest levels. And even if you put one of us on a flashy WB other issues would keep us from being competitive at upper levels. The problem seems to arise when too many feel that they cant be competitive even at the lower levels at smaller shows. And seeing horses/riders with basic training flaws outscore more correct training just through innate ability can be quickly discouraging.
I think the lower levels are more needed to guide and reward correct training than to reward inborn ability. I dont know how you would judge each horses “gait potential” honestly. I would favor changing the judging methodology at least through First to not start with the gaits score and modify from there. Rewrite the tests with more scores for transitions and figures and whatever else will reward proper training.
I suspect that Western Dressage is attractive because it seems more achievable and tries to de-emphasize the gaits. It will be interesting to see if they can maintain that if it grows in popularity.
These are really interesting. I fit most of these and I think rated shows are too expensive.
i am an attorney with a farm, my husband is also an attorney, we have 2 kids…I work hard to bring horses along — they are my passion — and I have recently turned to pure dressage as that is what is available here. I used to do jumpers seriously, then I dabbled in Eventing for a few years. Enjoying myself a lot, it isn’t that different but I am learning some new tools.
I have 2 young horses, both bought for jumping. They also have good gaits so I am just transitioning them. One is an OTTB, one is a KWPN. The WB I bought as a weanling and she has so much natural talent but her gaits are also rideable for an ammy. Her walk is excellent. Her canter is excellent. The trot is better than average but easily sittable. her work ethic is developing. She will be perfect for me long term, as an ammy you need something you can ride without being a pro, but athletic.
The TB is basically one point less than the WB all around on gaits. But he is a hard worker so he might well go as far, given how hard he tries and how much I can push him. He has a lovely canter and a good trot.
the most important thing for me is making sure I get regular instruction so we can all develop. I get training rides too as needed. When my horses are competitive, we will compete, but I have never been one to go to a rated show if my horses aren’t ready. What we need generally is the patience to develop horses. It takes time. Toss this year out—it isn’t going to happen — but that just means we can double down on being correct and developing for next year.
THey are the standard because the original COMPETITIVE dressage rules were drawn from the German cavalry training manuals. I am sure I will be corrected if I am wrong. And this gets to the division between those who think only “classical” dressage is the real thing… and competitive dressage is an abomination.
The same way a judge can decide a bulldog is best in show over a greyhound. They have different ways of going for sure, but they’re still trotted around the ring and judged against how closely they match their own standards. Then the one with the higher score wins over the other. In theory, dressage is not scored as this horse against that horse, so that should be reflected in the scoring, but that doesn’t seem to be happening today.
So that would be like saying of the gymnist - she is tall, cant make those full twists off the bars, but we wont deduct because it’s her conformation holding her back, we can see the training is there… There needs to be a standard to judge against.
The All Breed awards are where horses are grouped with only their own breed. As someone who rides a Lusitano, I know I wont beat the big warmbloods, but I also know I can do well in the All Breed Awards - if I choose to compete for those awards (I am not a fan of how my breed association treats the AB awards, so… )
So this is where we really differ. For me, competing is not about the ribbons - its about bettering my score from last time, showing that my training is making a difference.
I’m curious as to how you felt judged on your QH in those first couple of years in dressage? After seeing the benefits in the western world, did you continue to ride your QH up the levels? When (if ever) did you decide to exchange your all-around horse for a purpose bred horse?
I’m a lowly AA who honestly just aspires to make it to 2nd level on my OTTB. I live in an affluent area (while not being affluent myself!) and have had trainers tell me that i NEED to buy a warmblood. Like they wanted to stop wasting their time teaching me and my horse and wouldn’t look at us again until I came back mounted on something that cost more than my college education. They were not interested in my limited budget and corresponding low goals. They only had room in their lesson program for big checkbooks - talent and hard work need not apply.
I have attended a ride-a-test clinic where the judge mentioned that a QH was ‘cute’ and ‘well ridden’ but she could not take him seriously since he was a buckskin. :eek: This was a training level test ridden by a jr. This judge had just returned from Aachen and was ‘disgusted’ by the low quality of our west-coast horses. Clearly, I will never show under this person, but it sure was disheartening to hear.
I know this particular judge was one bad apple, but it points to the fact that lower budget AAs don’t feel that the USDF cares about us.
I’m not sure where I got the idea, but I always thought that dressage was supposed to be one of the more objective disciplines where diligent training and accuracy was rewarded with fair scores at east in the low levels. I still subscribe to this.
Dressage is hard and expensive. I make lots of sacrifices to afford the cheap horse, used saddle and no frills barn I have. It doesn’t make me less or more of a horseman than someone who has the funds for 2 imported warmbloods in full time training.I just feel that USEF does not feel the same way.
I LOVE reading blogs and article from other DIYers or people with project horses. I can relate so much more to the struggles I share with those who are trying to find the right trainer on a budget, or someone weighing out two less-than-great boarding options than I care about a millionaire’s amazing barn or someone’s flashy new 6 figure horse.
Now that the Jockey Club is the the partner for the USDF all-breeds, I am really excited to see what the future holds. I earn TIP with my horse, and support the local Thoroughbred Classic show, which is essentially a breed show for TBs. I love how some GMOs have their own high point ___(insert breed here) for year end awards, and that is all encouraging. I say keep going on that road. We should be reaching out to our breed registries for more breed awards or to brag about how our horses are doing in the dressage ring.
I agree that change is best made on the local scale rather than railing at USDF/USEF. Most GMO chapter meetings are under-attended, so perhaps that is a good place to start.
I wouldn’t say it’s the same as gymnastics though. It’s more like figure skating, you can see a taller lanky skater vs. a shorter, more powerful skater. They can both land a triple axle, but they are going to look different. You’re still going to have horses that have it easier than others due to conformation etc. but it shouldn’t be a thing were whole breeds are essentially excluded from being competitive.
I think the point of this thread is that back in 1969, a school teacher was able to buy a horse, Keen, for $1,000 and take this horse to the Olympics. For calibration, the $1,000 in 1969 dollars is about $4500 in todays (2020) dollars (using the Future Value function in Excel) estimating 3% inflation.
I don’t think you would find an Olympic prospect today for $4500…and THAT is part of the discussion about “accessibility” of dressage.
I am in the camp that “dressage” is about training of the horse.
THAT dimension of dressage is available to anyone who wants to work hard, find teachers and persevere with their education and growth as a rider and horseman…just like Ms Gurney.
Any horse with a clean gaits, W-T-C can do “dressage”…up to and including the movements in an FEI test if it has a modicum of athletic abilities.
The question is whether that horse/rider pair would be competitive given the current interpretation of what is valued in a dressage test and how judges are instructed to judge.
COMPETITVE dressage…that’s a whole 'nother ball game.
but that BOB judge is also carded in all the breeds she(he) judges, and of course they dont judge the “average” dog - just those who fit the “dog show” standard. Dressage - as we are talking about it here - is VERY different! You want the “average” bulldog to be judged fairly against the “best of breed” lab - based on how they trot the triangle. - to do this in dressage, the judges would have to be knowlegable about all the breeds’ “average” gait type - have you seen the QH these days? They range from the 17H hunter to the 14.2H reiner. How could a judge ever know what a horse’s “natural” gait is??
I didn’t say average at all. We’re talking best of. So look at the individual horse and judge it against the best of that type of horse, not the best of another breed altogether. Should a 14.2 horse have the same length of stride as the 17h horse? Clearly not, but does it have extension? Does it have collection? Is it on the vertical? Does it have impulsion? Judges are supposed to judge the individual test, not judge the horses against each other or be biased against a horse that is not the typical breed, and that’s what seems to be happening from my outside perspective and is part of the reason I’ve never been very interested in the sport aside from some eventing years ago.
It is defined in the rule book…Based on the definitions below, most “non-gaited” horses would have W-T-C that meed the descriptions as defined below.
The question is how the judges are told to interpret these rules.
Per the FEI Rules
ARTICLE 403 THE WALK
[LIST=1]
The walk is a marching pace in a regular and well-marked four (4) times beat with equal intervals between each beat. This regularity combined with full relaxation must be maintained throughout all walk movements.
When the foreleg and the hind leg on the same side move almost on the same beat, the walk tends to become an almost lateral movement. This irregularity, which might become an ambling movement, is a serious deterioration of the pace.
The following walks are recognised: Medium walk, Collected walk, Extended walk and Free walk. There should always be a clear difference in the attitude and overtracking in these variations.
[/LIST]
ARTICLE 404 THE TROT
[LIST=1]
The trot is a two (2)-beat pace of alternate diagonal legs (left fore and right hind leg and vice versa) separated by a moment of suspension.
The trot should show free, active and regular steps.
The quality of the trot is judged by general impression, i.e. the regularity and elasticity of the steps, the cadence and impulsion in both collection and extension. This quality originates from a supple back and well-engaged hindquarters, and by the ability to maintain the same rhythm and natural balance with all variations of the trot.
The following trots are recognised: Working trot, Lengthening of steps, Collected trot, Medium trot and Extended trot.
[/LIST]
ARTICLE 405 THE CANTER
[LIST=1]
The canter is a three (3)-beat pace where, in canter to the right, for example, the footfall is as follows: left hind, left diagonal (simultaneously left fore and right hind), right fore, followed by a moment of suspension with all four (4) feet in the air before the next stride begins.
The canter, always with light, cadenced and regular strides, should be moved into without hesitation.
The quality of the canter is judged by the general impression, i.e. the regularity and lightness of the steps and the uphill tendency and cadence originating from the acceptance of the bridle with a supple poll and in the engagement of the hindquarters with an active hock action – and by the ability of maintaining the same rhythm and a natural balance, even after a transition from one (1) canter to another. The Horse should always remain straight on straight lines and correctly bent on curved lines.
The following canters are recognised: Working canter, Lengthening of strides, Collected canter, Medium canter and Extended canter.
[/LIST]
This.
I have shown quite a variety of horses, ranging from my 14.2 school horse after my warmblood was sidelined, to Lusitano, TB, Arabians, welsh cobs, various ponies, and warmbloods. I personally have not experienced much breed bias. The best judges often rewarded the more limited horses most liberally for their correctness. Talented horses ridden poorly are recognized as such by the judges, but at the lower levels will still score well on the movements because the gaits are are proportionately larger slice of the score. This changes as the technical elements increase.
Yes, I agree that the tests are designed around a Western European horse. However, any horse working through their body with swing who is ridden accurately and to the standards of the level is going to score well. When I’d score in the high 60’s and low 70’s with my school horse (haflinger x Hanoverian), I could win over an expensive horse who was not-well presented by poor training, or suffered inaccurate test components, had a few u fortunate spooks or some other submission issue… Could we beat a fancy horse on a good day? No…but my little guy cost $3,500 and on good days he scored 7 on gaits. With O judges (one of them WAS Axel) So… if I got third with a 71 in a class where the first three placing were over 75%, I celebrated. Yes, there are some judges who are more or less open to non-warmbloods. But I haven’t experienced them to be more than an occasional outlier. Nothing for me to throw my toys down over.
Also, I think that there is no question that there is a leveling effect after third level. Flashy lower level horses with astronomical movement often Disappear because they have not been correctly developed, go lame, or really cannot collect. The correct, but less “exciting” movers can rise to the occasion by demonstrating correct fluent tests, and will really pull ahead if they collect easily. The Iberians who couldn’t score well at training or first level start to shine…if their trainers persevered and got them to work through their back, they will be rewarded.
There will always be someone who can spend more on a horse than you. Who can outride you. Who doesn’t appreciate the horse they have. Ride for the critique from a qualified set of eyes.
I think also that the line between amateurs and pros gets more and more blurred every day.
There are many sports that allow amateurs to collect money for endorsements. Swimming, gymnastics, .
Boxing,
I personally dont have a problem with it. If wearing a sponsors boots or an ad on a saddle pad earns a struggling AA some much needed cash I’m all for it. They are not getting an unfair advantage.
If someone came to me and said " Change your horses name to Geico and we’ll pay all your expenses. I’d say Hell Yeah and I’ll brush little Geckos all over his hindquarters if you want me to. "
There is no unfair advantage imo.
I dont have a problem with amateurs riding other people’s horses or working for a trainer as long as that amateur is not riding that trainers horses in shows. That would be an unfair advantage.
An amateur is not trying to earn a living by competing in dressage or training or running a dressage facility for profit.
An amateur without a large income is trying to earn money to compete and that is a totally different thing.
These demographics have vastly changed. Do you think the income average reflects the fact that the grassroots have been largely booted out of the system and the rich people haven’t?
I think the biggest challenge is finding truly qualified training. If they keep raising qualifying requirements, but people don’t have access to qualified training, the goals will be impossible to meet. When goals are impossible, people lose interest.
Why do these threads always devolve into shadow boxing against some imaginary mob of villagers who want bad rides on undeveloped, unsuitable nags to be scored more highly than competent riding on purpose-bred WBs?
I don’t think any of us riding ordinary, non-dressage-bred horses expect to win against horses with more inborn talent, and I don’t think anyone is asking for all of dressage to be blind to the physical and mechanical differences between horses. Furthermore, I don’t think a majority of those who lament the diminishing participation/opportunities for ordinary horses and riders give a flying leap about what color ribbons they’re taking home.
Most of us are passionate about dressage because we enjoy improving ourselves and our horses through the principles of this discipline, and we’re interested in showing, education, community (i.e. elements of an organized sport) as they serve those aims. We’re not sitting around waiting for a fairy godmother to wave a wand and turn us into brilliant riders on fabulous horses, or to hang rosettes on our horses’ stalls while we sleep at night … we’re investing a lot of work and resources into training (and in many cases memberships and show fees) and enjoy doing that in the context of a broader community. That goes for the people who are just eking out an equestrian life every bit as much as it does for the folks who are able to afford all the advantages of modern sport horse breeding.
The fact remains that many of us who care quite a lot about dressage but don’t have the resources to keep up with moves toward an emphasis on innate horse quality are seeing fewer and fewer ways to participate meaningfully in dressage as an organized sport and a community. Why that is has been discussed at length over many threads, but it’s not because anyone thinks they shouldn’t have to work to develop their own horse’s gaits, or because anyone is waiting for the entirety of dressage to do a U-turn toward favoring a diversity of flaws and limitations over contemporary breeding ideals. That’s just silly. I see responses from people who seem to be satisfied with the current state of American dressage saying, there’s a place for working class riders in dressage if you can learn to be happy there. But there is no there there.
Part of why that is troubling is that it participation hasn’t always been this difficult or this fruitless. And though the changes in dressage competition may reflect the “evolution” of American dressage toward something more prestigious and globally competitive, some of us don’t think that necessarily needs to preclude activities and policies that serve a broader swath of the dressage-riding population. I, personally, don’t want to hold you back – you go on with your bad self and your tens of thousands of dollars (or more) of horseflesh and win all of those ribbons, and I’ll be rooting for you. But I would love to be able to take my dressage life outside of the same 20x60m of sand that I ride in everyday in a way that’s more meaningful and/or less costly than paying hundreds of dollars for a test sheet full of the same comments about my horse’s gaits and conformation that I always get and numerical scores that can’t distinguish real progress from a multitude of other sources of variation.
Honestly, at the time I didn’t really think about it or consider the judging was biased. I was just having fun. I maybe took 1 lesson a week with a mediocre trainer at best. I was pretty uneducated. In retrospect, and having gone through the L program, I think I was fairly judged. My horse had little to no impulsion but was rock steady and obedient and every single halt was square. I got a big fat submission score one test when the tractor came in to drag during my test and my horse didn’t bat an eye and we continued on. We were consistently in the low 60s high 50s at training level.
i work hard to keep my horses until they die, so didn’t get a purpose bred warmblood until this guy was pretty gimpy from navicular. Now those were the lowest scores I ever got, high 40s at first level because I couldn’t ride him. I survived because he was a saint. After that first show, I decided to get decent training and help. I sure needed it.
I think this reflects the greater state of the world of horse ownership. Increasing land costs and stagnating wages plus greater swings between economic highs or lows simply exclude horse ownership for many people.
Grassroots haven’t been booted out by organizations. They’ve been booted out by the fixed costs of participating in equestrian pursuits. The average one-horse owner is a boarder at a public facility (which are fewer and fewer every year).
Equestrianism is a luxury that exceeds the cost of a high end sports car in terms of monthly obligation. It’s just not available to everybody, so competitive organizations will also reflect that.
