So why do western riders really do the shanked bits?

[BLBGP]

@Shermy;6298028

I ride w/a shack bit. It is pretty benign. I can yank it and my horse doesnt care, so has very little “bite”.

The difference is I mostly ride on the buckle. I am NOT in my horses mouth at all. I use very little pressure to signal that I want to turn, stop, etc. Mostly just raising my hand a tad, is all I need.

My horse rides off of my seat, so to stop, I just need to sit DOWN deep. I dont need to even pull back at all.

I would much rather ride like that, than constantly be in my horses mouth like so many English riders do.

I think we can all agree that any bit is only as harsh as a rider’s hands. So the question is back to - why a shank? Many of the responses so far have been that high-end western horses are so well trained that they can be ridden on the buckle. So I guess the (naive?) question remains - if they are that well trained to the slightest body weight cue, then why not on the buckle on a snaffle? If your horse stops when you sit deep without touching the reins, why do you need a long shank in his mouth?

Soooo not accusing anyone of anything. Just trying to learn! If the answer is, as it seems to be, that they are super refined and highly tuned and need no contact, then why the relatively high-test bit? (Full disclosure - I also wonder why dressage horses need to go in a double bridle per the rules even if the individual doesn’t require it.)

[wylde_sage]

Comparing snaffles in english to curbs in western is apples to oranges.

Yes yes yes!!! Thank you!!

[Lori]

There are some great old books that explain it better than I ever could:
Ed Connell
Reinsman of the West: Bridles and Bits
Hackamore Reinsman

[Lori]

[QUOTE=Bluey;6297331]
Of course, any bit, even snaffles, can and are used to signal also.:yes:

Until the last few decades, western riding was not very technical.
About half a century ago, some trainers/exhibitors didn’t even know what leads were, some judges didn’t either.:eek:

“We” have come a long way, have we.;)[/QUOTE]

I agree with this from the show world perspective (I actually met a trainer who had no idea what leads were back in the 90s, even!!), but the technicality has been in the real working horse world for a lot longer than a few decades.

[kwsbongo]

Most western show horses are started in a loose ring snaffle and or bosal until the age of 4-5 then graduate into a shanked bit after that for more refined moves. Also, if you are showing western at the age of 6 they are required to show in a shanked bit. You will be disqualified for using a snaffle. The theory behind this rule is that the horse should be sufficiently broke enough to ride with one hand and the shanked bit allows for that use.

I show AQHA as well as ARHA and train in a (are ya ready) cathedral high port bit. My mare is a finished WP mare and it takes mabey a 1/2 inch raise of my hand to get a half-halt. and a 1/2 left or right for a turn. Quite honestly she HATES going in a snaffle with constant contact, drives her nuts.

So as far as showing, its not about the harshness its about the finesse and the big picture going down the rail. I cannot speak about the other people that choose to ride in a curb for “brakes” persay, I have plenty

[spotnnotfarm]

@kwsbongo;6305981

I show AQHA as well as ARHA and train in a (are ya ready) cathedral high port bit. My mare is a finished WP mare and it takes mabey a 1/2 inch raise of my hand to get a half-halt. and a 1/2 left or right for a turn. Quite honestly she HATES going in a snaffle with constant contact, drives her nuts.

My gelding is like this as well! He can be fussy in a plain snaffle but is quiet, soft and responsive in a jr cowhorse bit. I hope he can be a bridle horse one day but I am not sure I can be soft enough for one!

[Macimage]

We sent our 9 y/o paint gelding out for his advanced bridle training for the past 9 months. He is unbelievable in the bridle, just the lightest touch or a tiny movement of your hand is all it takes to move him in any direction.

There was much more mouth contact necessary with the snaffle to stop, turn or back up. Even our trainer agrees that he goes much better in the bridle and he said some horses are like that and will do better in the bridle.

He went from contact with the snaffle to literally no contact with the bit now. He neck reins with the touch of the rein on his neck and stops from your seat.

Our horse is definitely a lighter and happier horse in the bridle, shanks and all. It is unbelievable to ride such a finely tuned horse.

[Graureiter]

[QUOTE=Lori;6301623]
There are some great old books that explain it better than I ever could:
Ed Connell
Reinsman of the West: Bridles and Bits
Hackamore Reinsman[/QUOTE]

And for something a little older. William Cavendish, Duke of Newcastle.

“A new method, and extraordinary invention, to dress horses, and work them according to nature”

http://www.artisticdressage.com/photos/newcastle4.jpg

[spotnnotfarm]

[QUOTE=Macimage;6306367]
We sent our 9 y/o paint gelding out for his advanced bridle training for the past 9 months. He is unbelievable in the bridle, just the lightest touch or a tiny movement of your hand is all it takes to move him in any direction.

There was much more mouth contact necessary with the snaffle to stop, turn or back up. Even our trainer agrees that he goes much better in the bridle and he said some horses are like that and will do better in the bridle.

He went from contact with the snaffle to literally no contact with the bit now. He neck reins with the touch of the rein on his neck and stops from your seat.

Our horse is definitely a lighter and happier horse in the bridle, shanks and all. It is unbelievable to ride such a finely tuned horse.[/QUOTE]

Just curious, have you ridden a bridle horse before you sent your paint off for training? My horse still has a ways to go before I think about making him a bridle horse but my biggest worry is myself! Was it easy to adjust to making smaller movements? My guy needs more work on listening to my body but my goal is take him as far as I can go.

[SuckerForHorses]

[QUOTE=kwsbongo;6305981]
Most western show horses are started in a loose ring snaffle and or bosal until the age of 4-5 then graduate into a shanked bit after that for more refined moves. Also, if you are showing western at the age of 6 they are required to show in a shanked bit. You will be disqualified for using a snaffle. The theory behind this rule is that the horse should be sufficiently broke enough to ride with one hand and the shanked bit allows for that use.

I show AQHA as well as ARHA and train in a (are ya ready) cathedral high port bit. My mare is a finished WP mare and it takes mabey a 1/2 inch raise of my hand to get a half-halt. and a 1/2 left or right for a turn. Quite honestly she HATES going in a snaffle with constant contact, drives her nuts.

So as far as showing, its not about the harshness its about the finesse and the big picture going down the rail. I cannot speak about the other people that choose to ride in a curb for “brakes” persay, I have plenty :)[/QUOTE]

Great summary & explanation!

[myvanya]

There are some really good explanations here- far better than what I am qualified to provide, but here is my experience for what its worth.

As has been mentioned in most western shows you cannot show a horse over the age of 6 in a snaffle. The excpetion I know of to this is gymkhana. My semi-retired jumper horse (though he has literally done it all…vaulting, driving, therapeutic, western, trail, saddleseat…) is being shown in 4-H shows now. I was struggling to find a bit for him that was legal and would make sense to him. He carries himself, is soft in a snaffle, and I wanted to avoid over doing it especially since the person riding him is a begginer. He goes in a junior cowhorse bit with a low wide port and the short (probably 3"?) slightly backswept shanks can swivel independently. He goes great in it. He is what I would consider to be a pretty trained horse. That being said, for shows we switch to a tom thumb like bit with a copper roller in the middle (so it is double jointed). He listens to it a little more and he associates it with shows and behaves wonderfully. He still isn’t a flawless western pleasure horse and he never will be, but he can go softly and easily in a variety of bits. For barrel racing and other gymkhana events he goes in either a nathe (soft plastic mullen) or a kk ultra snaffle. You still barely need to touch it.

So to me, it is all in what the horse is trained to accept and listen to. Any bit can be harsh in the wrong hands; most bits can be very gentle when used correctly. I wouldn’t jump my horse in a western shank bit and I wouldn’t take him in a western pleasure class in a kk ultra. The right tool for the right job.

[newhorsemommy]

Well, my hybrid riding style wouldn’t work for showing, but I ride in a Western saddle, and direct rein using long, closed rope reins with a plain loose ring snaffle.

I like the security of the closed reins. I prefer to use a plain snaffle, and I seem to prefer direct reining. My gelding doesn’t neck rein very well anyways.

My mare does neck rein, but I always feel stupid when I do it, kind of like I feel when I am driving an automatic:)

[Macimage]

@spotnnotfarm;6307000

Just curious, have you ridden a bridle horse before you sent your paint off for training? My horse still has a ways to go before I think about making him a bridle horse but my biggest worry is myself! Was it easy to adjust to making smaller movements? My guy needs more work on listening to my body but my goal is take him as far as I can go.

Yes, our horses are bridle horses and the last time I used a snaffle was when my 28 y/o old Arab was 4-5 y/o.

With that being said, they were not as highly trained or as light and responsive as our Paint is now.

Our trainer has several National Championships and is a Hall of Fame member of National Reining Cow Horse Association so our horse is trained to a higher level than we were used to before.

It was not very difficult to make my movements smaller as I tend not to use my reins very much anyway. I have had my 28 y/o Arab since the day he foaled and when trail riding I would only have to shift my weight to have him go around sagebrush or down a fork in the trail.

We love the training that the Paint has. It’s like the Ferrari of horses!

We plan on sending my 4 y/o colt to him for his finish bridle work in a few years when he is ready. It is definitely something we would highly recommend.

As an aside, one day when we were at his ranch he let me hop up on a buckskin stallion he was working and do some spins on him. Wow, it was dizzying! It turns out that the owners were offered $250K for him when he won an important class at the QH Congress. That was a true high point in my riding life!

We can’t say enough good things about how happy we are that we decided to send our horse off for pro training. Free lessons were included but we could not go as often as we wanted due to work and family commitments.

[SwampYankee]

[QUOTE=Mukluk;6297150]
I am guessing that for the horses that are trained properly and progress to using a shanked bit there is hardly ever any pressure put on the bit. I think the well trained western horses go almost completely off of seat and legs and are ridden on a loose rein. I’m no expert but that is what I think is the case.[/QUOTE]

Exactly right; and over on the Dressage board they call it “self-carriage in collection.” The most exquisitely mouthed and balanced horse I ever rode was an old ex-reiner.

[re-runs]

The shanked western bits are “signal bits” and according to the Vaquero tradition, is to be used when the horse and rider graduate to one.

The sequence is usually… snaffle, bosal, then shanked bit. by the time one is done with the bosal, the horse is being ridden entirely off of body language: seat, weight, focus, the life in your body and the bit becomes less important to direct the horse. Your horse, by this stage, is riding off of indirect feel and you don`t really need to steer or stop with the bit, the horse just carries it, like a decoration to signify that they have achieved the ultimate in western riding. Horse and riding operating because they have formed a partnership.

Above, I am talking mainly about the spade bit, but the western shanked bits you see today are modifications of the spade but since most people will never have the discipline or the knowledge of how to use the spade, there have been all kinds of modifications made to protect the horse.

Western…being the tradition of the Californios, from the Spanish Vaqueros has the same roots as the dressage of the old masters (classical). The western saddle is a modified classical seat, with additions like a horn, cantle and pommel for working cattle and surviving work on a ranch.