something to kill adult Onchocerca? 19 CASE STUDIES POSTED-PAGE 58

[pasolover]

I spoke with my vet this morning about my concern that she may have NTW or that it can present as ligament issues. She was not at all opposed to the idea of giving Cadie 1 tube (she is only 750 lbs) of ivermectin.

She said that it will, at the very least, take NTW off the plate of issues that it could be a problem. Who knows, it very well may be, so she wanted to rule it out.

She did say that they (vets) learn of NTW and other parasites in vet school, but due to the deworming protocols widely used nowadays, it has all but disappeared, or not looked for.

She is a very open minded vet and I was glad she agreed that I needed to use ivermectin. My concern was that with all the other drugs she was on, that it may be a bad time to introduce yet another drug in her system, but she said it was fine.

SO, she will get a dose today!

Thanks all…

[JB]

@pasolover;3464322

I spoke with my vet this morning about my concern that she may have NTW or that it can present as ligament issues. She was not at all opposed to the idea of giving Cadie 1 tube (she is only 750 lbs) of ivermectin.

If you’re going to try this, do a full double dose. That’s more than 1 tube for her. The full double dose seems to be the kicker in this, not just 50% more which is what you’d be doing. Ivermectin has been safety tested to 20 times with no ill effects. I don’t think praziquantel has been tested that high, but it’s still quite safe at double the dose. So really, if you’re going to do it for this reason, do the full double dose. Otherwise, if you don’t resolve this issue this way, you won’t know if it’s because you only did 1.5x, or if it’s because it isn’t NTWs in the first place

My concern was that with all the other drugs she was on, that it may be a bad time to introduce yet another drug in her system, but she said it was fine.

Good to be concerned about that part!

[EqTrainer]

@gabz;3464301

The studies that were done, using large doses of ivermectin every 3 months, did not include the praziquantel. So, I would be curious if using 1 Equimax and 1 ivermectin instead of the 2 Equimax, would be as effective. It would still be the large ivermectin dose with the standard praziquantel. Following up, of course, with a repeat in 2 weeks.

As we know, ivermectin is safe for very large doses… (5 times?)

This would be for those who may have doubts about double-dosing Equimax/praziquantel.

That’s worth a try… kinda like the double shot of Tequila is chased by the beer… :lol:

[EqTrainer]

[quote=JB;3464334]
If you’re going to try this, do a full double dose. That’s more than 1 tube for her. The full double dose seems to be the kicker in this, not just 50% more which is what you’d be doing. Ivermectin has been safety tested to 20 times with no ill effects. I don’t think praziquantel has been tested that high, but it’s still quite safe at double the dose. So really, if you’re going to do it for this reason, do the full double dose. Otherwise, if you don’t resolve this issue this way, you won’t know if it’s because you only did 1.5x, or if it’s because it isn’t NTWs in the first place

---

Agree!

[pasolover]

Thanks all…I thought I rememered that a full tube was for 1500 lbs, which would be a double dose for her at 750 lbs, but it is only 1200, so I will just give her 2 full tubes…can’t hurt. I may repeat in 2 weeks…

Like my vet said…you “can” give 10 times the amount of ivermectin as suggested and it won’t hurt (NOT recommended, bur can’t hurt), so 2 tubes it is.

[pattnic]

[QUOTE=ChocoMare;3331666]
Shazam…I think I found out why Equimax was recommended. Granted this is from Australia, but since we know that NTWs are rampant here, it applies:

http://www.brunswickvet.com.au/Templates/StoryTemplate_Process.cfm?Story_No=1291&specie=6

Adult females worms up to 30cm long live in the major ligaments of the neck and, in rare cases, the flexor tendons and suspensory ligaments of the fetlock. Tiny juvenile forms (microfilariae) are produced by the female worms, and these migrate out of the ligaments towards the skin surface to form small, itchy lumps under the skin.

The horse rubs and abrades the lumps, which may seep serum. Biting insects, particularly sand flies, and possibly mosquitoes, are attracted by the abraded lump and digest microfilariae as they feed. These insects are capable of spreading the infestation to other horses within 20 – 25 days after ingesting microfilariae.

The lifecycle is complete in approximately 4 – 5 months. The adult worms have no recognised detrimental effect on the neck ligaments, however occasionally they may cause swelling of the flexor tendons and lameness in the front limbs.

The larvae can also invade the eye and cause blindness, particularly if the horse rubs and lacerates the eye.

Signs of Onchocerciasis

• Small lumps, from pea to marble size, develop in the skin on the underside of the belly, chest, withers, neck and face
• Itching and rubbing causes thinning and loss of hair, and scaly skin, particularly along the mane
• Surrounding weepy and scabby areas develop in severe cases
• Often white tufts of hair regrow on healing
• Biopsy of the lumps by your vet to identify microfilariae can confirm the diagnosis of onchocerciasis

Treatment & control of Onchocerciasis

• Control of biting insects is essential to prevent the condition
• Stable and rug the horse day and night
• Install insect screens in stables during summer months
  - Control of the microfilariae that cause skin itching can be achieved by worming with Equimax, Equiminth, Equimec, or Equest
• After treatment, horses often become intensely itchy within 24 – 72 hours, causing severe skin abrasions and mutilations, and damaging feeders, walls and fences on which they rub
• The itch may be controlled by prednisilone granules added to the feed for 3 – 5 days (consult your vet for advice).[/QUOTE]

This also mentions Equest, which is the UK/AUS version of Quest… are we to assume that the reason for the double dose of Equimax as opposed to Quest is because of the lower chance of overdose?
Who came up with the double-dose idea for treatment? Was it you, EqTrainer, for the reasons you mentioned (amount lost, etc), or was it a vet, independent research…?
This is all very interesting.

[WW_Queen]

I know the double-dosing is on the box for the fenbendozole (I bought 4 tubes today, need another 6!) but not sure about the ivermectrin.

I did a rough measurement of my horse’s girth and compared the measurements to a weight tape chart…if it correct, my horse weighs about 1300!! And he is SKINNY!! I calculated I’m a few hundred pounds short of the double dose so would hypothetically need to buy a third tube per day (although just administer a smaller % of it).

This thread was so timely…I can’t believe I waited so long before treating him. sigh Bad owner, bad!

[Simkie]

@pattnic;3465360

This also mentions Equest, which is the UK/AUS version of Quest… are we to assume that the reason for the double dose of Equimax as opposed to Quest is because of the lower chance of overdose?
Who came up with the double-dose idea for treatment? Was it you, EqTrainer, for the reasons you mentioned (amount lost, etc), or was it a vet, independent research…?
This is all very interesting.

I just posted some info about wormer safety right here:

http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?p=3465434#post3465434

What I think is interesting about the info I found is praziquantel and qwest BOTH approach toxicosis at 5 times the normal dose…so they are equally safe/unsafe.

I have no idea why we’re not double dosing Qwest, but it’s not because of the safety issue! Ivermectin/praziquantel may just be more effective.

[Catersun]

[QUOTE=JB;3331719]
Ok, this makes me wonder now what, if any, relationship these creepy crawlies have to dsld-lookalike issues :eek: Granted, that’s in the hind end (usually? always?) but “mostly in the forelimb” leaves it open to existing in the hind limb :dead:[/QUOTE]

I am SOO late to this party it isn’t even funny… but that was the very first thought I had when I read that.

Yes, I have read all 11 pages now. Sooo… EqT… do you find your horses more resistant to bug as in the flying kind?

[pasolover]

[QUOTE=JB;3331719]
Ok, this makes me wonder now what, if any, relationship these creepy crawlies have to dsld-lookalike issues :eek: Granted, that’s in the hind end (usually? always?) but “mostly in the forelimb” leaves it open to existing in the hind limb :dead:[/QUOTE]

INTERESTING concept…since my girl did have a torn suspensory a few years ago (it has since healed and she WAS back at work). Pasos are prone to dsld, but I “thought” that dsld was due to the healing process being cartilage versus collagen. If that is the case, maybe it is the NTW causing it, interrupting the normal healing process?

Parasites sure do throw a kink in everything.

[gabz]

@pattnic;3465360

Who came up with the double-dose idea for treatment? Was it you, EqTrainer, for the reasons you mentioned (amount lost, etc), or was it a vet, independent research…?
This is all very interesting.

I believe ChocoMare was advised of this treatment by her vet and is passing it along.

EqTrainer also has stringent dewormer tactics which go beyond this double dose of Equimax, repeated in 2 weeks.

And what’s so amazing is there is research that goes back more than 30 years on NTWs!!!

[JB]

@pasolover;3465605

INTERESTING concept…since my girl did have a torn suspensory a few years ago (it has since healed and she WAS back at work). Pasos are prone to dsld, but I “thought” that dsld was due to the healing process being cartilage versus collagen. If that is the case, maybe it is the NTW causing it, interrupting the normal healing process?

Parasites sure do throw a kink in everything.

Well, keep in mind that there is a “test” for DSLD now, pretty identifiable via ultrasound.

However, there are suspensory desmitis issues in horses whose breed doesn’t have DSLD (at least not known to), or the unilateral desmitis issues (DSLD-proper is pretty much bilataterl), which certainly can’t be ruled out as having some NTW component.

I had a dream last night that I was out hunting for little NTWs in my paster - came back with a box filled with little blue skinks and TONS of NTWs :eek::eek::eek: One of them crawled up under my sleeve and bit me :dead: :eek: Somebody help me…

[Catersun]

you need a little bug gun like in the matrix… hold it up to your belly and suck the little buggers out.

[JB]

Oh, gross…

Great movie!

[EqTrainer]

@Catersun;3465468

I am SOO late to this party it isn’t even funny… but that was the very first thought I had when I read that.

Yes, I have read all 11 pages now. Sooo… EqT… do you find your horses more resistant to bug as in the flying kind?

Oh Catersun, I saw your note about visiting us… anytime! OR like you said, the beach sounds good too

Yes, I find my FARM even has less bugs than most peoples. And really, I have always given my nutrition program the credit for the lack of skin funks but who knows?

Simkie, I have always wondered about Quest and doubling… I only am ultra careful about doseing it the first time I do it, then I go ahead and give them all a whole tube and sometimes another squirt from another if they are naughty about their dewormer. Little ponies I am pretty careful about.

[EqTrainer]

Uh, JB? You need a drink.

[pattnic]

How would you proceed in this double dosing for a horse that is currently on bute, antibiotics, and something else (can’t remember what of the top of my head) from a run-in (literally) with some fencing and a t-post? Should I wait until he’s off all that stuff? His next scheduled worming is ivermectin in September… I figure I’ll just do the Equimax instead. Or should I maybe just try anthelcide (1.5x) to start with? He recently started getting itching, and I have noticed some small bumps on him. He is wormed regularly (I use the schedule Chocomare posted).

I am definitely interested in trying this on the mare - this year (her first summer in GA), she developed “sweet itch,” which the vet looked at, and said was an allergy to culicoides; incidentally, according to something I read either on this thread or in one of the links from it, these gnats appear to be the primary carriers for these nasty little worms. It is primarily for her I am interested in trying this, but I do like to keep my horses on the same schedule.

[EqTrainer]

If he has been on a normal deworming schedule until now I’d just do a double Ivermectin, when he gets off all those meds (poor thing!) I’d do a double Equimax (you can do your other horse with that when you do his Ivermectin, the Ivermectin is in the Equimax so you won’t be really far off) and then do your Powerpacks a little later in the year. Or if they have been Powerpacked prior and you think he needs a break, do a Quest.

There are parameters based on the season and order, but you can mess around with it when you need to

[Camelot]

I’m going to give this a cautious thumbs-up. The jury is still out but it looks like there may be improvement. I double-dosed my Haflinger mare on Wed. Her belly is a mess from chest to up inside her groin. It’s the worst it’s ever been this year. I have been using Gold Bond powder in the green bottle on her 3 or 4 times a day just to slow down her assault on herself.

She kicks up and thumps herself almost constantly and usually has blood spots down the front of her rear legs. She is shod on the front and when she kicks herself with a front foot she leaves quite a welt. She will also hold up a back leg and reach way back with her head and tear at herself with her teeth. (and my trainer doesn’t think she is agile enough for western sports)

I thought I noticed this morning at feeding time that she was not doing nearly as much kicking up at herself with both front and rear legs. I decided not to apply any powder this morning and just watch her. This evening at feeding time there is still a decreased amount of kicking and thumping herself. I did not powder her this evening but there is still time before it is dark if it looks like she needs some itch relief.

I thought I was doing a complete de-worming program every two months rotating between the different drug classes. In January I start with the 5 day Panacur purge and we go from there. She’s always looked awesome but this sweet itch thing has become quite a problem for her and lasts for 5 - 6 months.

I’m so glad I clicked on this thread.

[JB]

@EqTrainer;3465807

Uh, JB? You need a drink.

My glass of wine is doing nicely for me right now :winkgrin:

I was going to tell you that little story when we talked this morning, but since you were fixing breakfast, well… :lol: