What does YOUR equine vet recommend?
EqTrainer has a very good rotation. Perhaps you can PM her and get her recommendations.
Um… not me. It was ChocoMare who is the “enabler”. You are the bomb LittleD for your perseverance and treatment of all the horses suffering.
It was this thread that showed me the error of MY ways (I underestimated my horses’ weights and hence, was underdosing some treatments). But it DID help 2 of my horses big time.
Thanks LittleD!!
vets can be wrong
Today I showed a vet the story and pics from tennesee. He informed me that he fixes these clubbed horses with no problem with 2 day treatments of oxytetracycline. BS big time!! this has been tried many times the vets that I worked for said it didnt work period and if it did why hasnt he (the vet) used it on a client that I am working on her clubbed horses he is the vet for. unbelievable. and I get this alot. so even though you need to listen to your vets and learn. If your vet is in denial about this. you may not be getting the whole picture of other mattters.
I was just curious, is all- I have my program but in light of all these creepies that I have never even heard of, I was wondering what the ones who are more aware of the parasites than I do.
ADDENDUM TO ANNIE’S STORY:
Seems her story, photos, etc. caused quite a stir and my farrier has been getting phone calls & e-mails…all good tho!!! :yes:
A lot of folks wanted more of Annie’s “Before” story, so here it is straight from her owner, Jenny Bennett:
I would like to say that BEFORE we did the double dose of Equimax, Annie’s pasterns Could Not Extend forward any more than they are in that picture (see above prior post).
I stretched her leg forward and set the bottom of her foot on the ground, way out in front of her and then tried to ease her forward to where her own 350# was pushing on those tendons and ligaments. They did not give a bit. She just rolled up onto her toes and then over onto the fronts of her hooves. I could not hold her leg and using my hands, extend her toes forward where they belonged. They wouldn’t go. (of course – if her 350# was not enough to stretch them, my hands surely would not)
After the 1st double dose of E-max, they were ‘softer’ and had a little flexibility. Not enough, but a little, and over the next 2 weeks, continued to improve. After the 2nd double dose, 2 weeks later, they were much more flexible, to the point that, with the first set of shoes/casts, right away, her pasterns were actually sloped, not vertical, or worse. They could not have if we had tried that 2 weeks earlier, while she was still ‘tight’.
I am convinced, from what I have seen and handled every day for the last 2 months with Annie that the problem she had was these parasites, and that one way or another they interfered with the ligaments’ and tendons’ growth and function. Anyone could see that what she needed was for those feet to be encouraged to be drawn forward somehow, but what had to happen first was flexibility of those ligaments and tendons. Shoes (with nails) on little baby feet are problematic. The combination of shoes, glue and casting tape applied to encourage proper carriage, gaits, comfort and growth is the Art of Farriery.
FWIW - I just read a huge study that reports 0 resistance to ivermectin in the USA.
You can forget using strongid anymore as daily dewormer use has created huge resistance, according to this study. Must use it w/an bendazole product.
Spellings will be all wrong here as I am trying to eat my lunch and type :lol:
Is the study online or published in paper? Can you give us a link if it’s online?
Very Sad Update - TB Mare Died
[QUOTE=WeDoItAll;3547060]
So … the rest of the worm did come out; we didn’t have to pull it. It was erupting for several days. The top of that area scabbed over, which I softened and then it came off. You could see the hole where the worm had come out, as well as about 1.5" around it where the skin had broken and is now healing. Most of the egg shaped area has reduced in swelling by at least half - it’s only out from the leg (which still has some swelling) about 1/3".
She is definitely needing the second dose … I just wondered about the others who have (and had) no symptoms/reaction at all.[/QUOTE]
So here’s what we did – we did three rounds of double dosing, 2 weeks apart, 4 weeks off. During this time, the weird horny growths (that she’d had for over 5 years - previously attributed to very bad mud fever) were coming off and looking much better. No further worm eruptions. After 4 weeks off, did another double dose, same leg started swelling again; did 2nd double dose and 4 days after second double dose, mare went down in field and couldn’t get her rear end to work well enough to get back up.
We tried everything and the light was just gone in her eyes. We helped her cross over the bridge. I’m sorry it took me so long to report – I just haven’t been able to deal with it well.
First … I am NOT saying this was directly attributable to the protocol, although I do think it had an influence.
Very sad … she was a wonderful youth eventing horse.
Oh my gosh - sorry to hear that happened.
You did double-doses of Equimax everytime? I didn’t think anyone had done more than 2 of the DDE-max. Only 2 rounds of that and then Ivermectin for follow-up.
Of course, I don’t think anyone else had erupting worms like you had.
so sorry.
Oh, I’m so sorry to hear of this 
Was a necropsy done? Only asking because, perhaps, we could all learn from her story.
((( Hugs )))
No necropsy … but interesting you should ask
[QUOTE=ChocoMare;3798514]
Oh, I’m so sorry to hear of this Was a necropsy done? Only asking because, perhaps, we could all learn from her story.
((( Hugs )))[/QUOTE]
First … my vet was onboard with the protocol (not familiar with it, but after discussions was game – particularly after the eruption!). We gave the 4 week break purposefully on his recommendation.
We didn’t do a formal necropsy. For those interested, here’s an album of photos of what her legs looked like during treatment.
http://s126.photobucket.com/albums/p84/criker99/Hannah/
(hopefully the album link works). BE WARNED - there is a photo in there of my daughter while Hannah is down. DD insisted on a “last photo” with one of her best friends. I don’t know how she managed it – she was in tears, but wanted it to be a happy photo - she faked it quite well.
It was interesting, DD’s response. She knew, obviously, we were working with this protocol. This last summer she had the opportunity to participate in a clinic where they dissected a horse’s leg. She actually asked if she thought we could do that to Hannah’s leg and see once and for all what was going on in there. We talked about it, and as much as the curiousity was there, we decided that in reality we didn’t think we could pull it off emotionally. This, along with the fact that we wouldn’t necessarily have the knowledge to know what we were looking at.
The vet was out of town and not due back, so a standard necropsy wasn’t available. Of course the worst part is having to call the renderer to take her body away. We aren’t allowed to bury them here.
Oh my What a trooper she was.
Thank you for quantifying to all here that you DID have your vet involved in the whole process.
(((( some more hugs )))))
We tried everything and the light was just gone in her eyes. We helped her cross over the bridge. I’m sorry it took me so long to report – I just haven’t been able to deal with it well.
Very sad … she was a wonderful youth eventing horse.[/QUOTE]
I am so sorry to read of your loss. Hugs and warm wishes to you and your DD.
wow! i am so sorry for your loss. I am absolutely gob smacked at what was coming out of her leg !!! does the vet not know what it was?
(the below is not directed at you - just my comments about this thread in general )
while reading her post i recalled that i have read (no, i cant remember the links) that folks have to be very careful when de-worming especially for horses with suspected heavy worm loads - something about theaffect of all those dead and dying worms evacuating the horse can be a real problem and can possible do extreme damage. .
while i support people in their efforts to help their horses i just hope that those that are going crazy with this Double dose routine stop and think about what they are dong.
wormer is a very powerful drug after all.
Then, MBM, I will reiterate what has been stated before but, perhaps, missed in the myriad of pages/posts:
Everything should be done with caution and under the supervision of a veterinarian, as WeDoItAll did. If after three double doses, NO change is seen for the better, then the owner can safely assume that it is not NTW-related and should seek out further veterinary care, up to and including seeing a specialists at a University.
mbm - Yes, common sense has to be used at all times when adopting protocols read about on websites;
When a horse has a high parasite load there can be 2 different repercussions from high kill off. One is when there is a large number of stomach worms (typically foals) that die and then block the intestines.
The 2nd event is when there is a high parasite kill off and that creates toxins in the horse and leads to colic and other fatal illnesses.
When a horse has not been on an adequate deworming program, it can obviously begin to harbor large numbers of a parasites. There is anywhere from 50 - 160 different parasites that are “native” to horses. They do not all shed eggs so fecal counts are not always accurate. There are 50 -160 different types of parasites that can exist in many different stages, throughout the horse - in tissues of the mouth, muscles, heart, lungs, other internal organs, stomach, intestines, etc. etc. The parasites in their various forms of life stages migrate throughout the horse.
When a horse’s previous deworming history is unknown or questionable, I always recommend a mild paste dewormer to knock out a percentage of parasites; then a week or 2 later, something a little stronger; then 2 weeks later something like Quest, Quest +, Equimax, to take out any remaining parasites AND to take out any newly hatched parasites - because with some types, they lay dormant in a juvenile form until they sense “room”. So if the mature ones are knocked off, that leaves room for an earlier stage to hatch or migrate. Some dewormers are only active against mature stages of certain parasites so once the adult form is killed, the newly emerging mature has to be targeted soon afterwards; other dewormers are active against encysted stages of other parasties. etc.
So far as the worm in the horse’s leg - that’s exactly what this thread is about. While that worm might not have been onchocerca - it could have been since the adults can grow up to 12" long. The migrating microfilarae and onchocerca that travel beneath the skin - through the tissues of the horse and cause severe itching; OR the ones that settle in the ligaments and tendons of infected horses - usually foals - and create damage of contracted tendons. Mature Onchocerca live in the muscles of the neck of horses close to the spine. (nuchum ligatae or whatever) There is nothing to kill them. They continue to release eggs that become adults that travel throughout the horse.
Horses are fragile animals and their intestinal systems are easily impacted. I do not advocate continual high doses of dewormers, but I do think that there are times when it is necessary to truly kill off parasites - in their myriad forms.
RE: what was coming out of that horses leg - that was NOT NeckThread Worms… they are microscopic. that looked like a bot worm.
re: worms in horses in general. this might be gross but worms and what not are just a normal part of being an animal and we shouldn’t try to get rid of all worms etc. what we do need to worry about is heavy loads etc. and not all horses get heavy loads… some horse are able to ward off the worms themselves…
and it is absolutely possible to control worms with a) fecal counts and b) worming at appropriate times during the year when the worms you are targeting are available to be killed. ie: generally spring and fall ; right before you put horses to pasture etc.
and finally the literature (scientific) states that one dose of Ivermectin should be enough to kill the microfilia (sp)… and that it might take a few doeses over a period of time as more are hatched as space is poened up (as gabz said above) …
anyway - i just think it is crazy for folks to continually be jumping on this or that badwagon and this or that new magical tratment that is going to cure this or that problem… i mean look at the number of pages here!
if a person is worming regularly (either every 6 weeks or using timing etc) using ivermectin then there shouldn’t be a heavy load of Neck Thread worms…
and Chocomare: i went back and reread some of this thread… are you a vet?
deworming
keep in mind that it very well could have been something other than your deworming that put your horse down. I have been doing research on this for over 10 year and to date I have never had the results that occurred here. Sorry for your lose.
The resistance of small strongyles is not the same resistance we’re talking about, as in, no longer 100% die-off. The “resistance” with the small strongyles is that in a few instances, they are seeing an ERP of 4 weeks instead of the normal 8 weeks. Still 100% kill rate, but a faster re-appearance. The last that was published, that I read, which has only been in the last 2 months or so, there was nothing put out yet as to how to potentially address this, as a 4-week rotation with ivermectin is not necessarily the best route.
Resistance of ascarids (roundworms) to ivermectin is not new.
[quote=mbm;3787147]i didnt say there was anything inherently wrong about double dosing (with vet approval) - however, my point is - the fad of double dosing for any old suspected reason is one thing that is helping spread resistance to ivermectin - just like people taking (or giving) antibiotics for any old reason is helping reduce the effectiveness of antibiotics.
it is just common sense.
[/quote]
Where is there a fad of DD’ing for any ol’ reason? It’s not here. This thread has been entirely about DD’ing with Equimax (or ivermectin alone) for reasons thought to be due to adult onchocerca. That’s it. Not for rainrot, not for ascarids, not dd’ing with moxidectin (eep!!). Equimax/ivermectin, and neck threadworms.
[quote=EqTrainer;3798249]FWIW - I just read a huge study that reports 0 resistance to ivermectin in the USA.
[/quote]
Even for ascarids? I think that isn’t quite correct. Ascarids are a known resistance issue here in the US. My vet has a client - breeding farm - where ascarid resistance to ivermectin is pretty high. She has them only using a double dose of fenbendazole on the foals for now.
You can forget using strongid anymore as daily dewormer use has created huge resistance, according to this study. Must use it w/an bendazole product.
This caught my attention, because somewhere recently I read someone mention using pyrantel pamoate and oxibendazole (aka Anthelcide) together for a bigger bang. I realize the daily dewormers are pyrantel tartrate, but if you give a high enough dosage of that, you can effectively mimic pyrantel pamoate.
I will check it tonight.
I may try to copy this and then post it somewhere, it is not on line and was in a vet journal.
